Mikey98118

Burners 101

Recommended Posts

917157740_forge3.thumb.jpeg.8a82b4b89c1964e46ab479da6acc50d5.jpeg956827380_forge2.thumb.jpeg.d0111be6c0bc3663683f000030afbb6f.jpeg2032600631_forge1.thumb.jpg.522c51b27fb3f0cf395e93c7f42f9324.jpg

Yea I am lost, this started out as a reply to someone???? 

this was my first attempt at a ribbon burner forge. 1st forge of any kind actually.   2.5" cherry after in 10 mins in.  it's alright I just made some more improvements last week end. I have a video that says to big to load..... 

On 1/23/2019 at 12:52 PM, Another FrankenBurner said:

An engineer who knows everything, how original... :P  All kidding aside, that is cool, what do you engineer?

Lately just my house, but mainly manufacturing production equipment...     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Metal is hot, nice job.  Is that a ribbon burner or a blown tube burner?

Those bricks look like the hard fire brick variety from the images.  If so, they are quite the heat sink.  If you ever want for higher internal temperatures, you can switch them out for Morgan Thermal Ceramic K26 soft fire bricks.  They are expensive though.  You could also go the ceramic blanket with top coat method.  Either way would allow for larger forge volumes and/or higher internal temperatures and/or using less fuel.  

The other thing I have read that you might be interested in, you have a shorter forge with a top dead center mounted burner, the flame impinges directly on the work piece and contains heated oxygen which causes extra scaling.  I believe they recommend a horizontal mounting which shoots across the top of the forge with square forges but don't quite remember as I build tube/oval forges.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gun burner, right? I believe I'm looking at PVC with a valve coming up from under the stand. 

Heavy fire brick is only an advantage if you have a lot of throughput as it has a lot more thermal mass and so fresh cold steel doesn't draw it down as fast and far. However for the home shop most folk don't want to wait as long for warm ups and spend as much fuel to maintain heat. Hard FB has slightly better R value than an equal thickness of limestone. 

Looks good as it is though. I'd develop a more effective forge liner but I'd sure take pics & make drawings of this one so I could duplicate it if I didn't like later models. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, ribbon from my research?  Its 1'5 inch to 2" adapter mated to brick air tight. 12 or 14 holes drilled in brick 5/16.  So the forced air mixes along the way & the adapter evenly distributes the air-fuel mix to chamber.     I have a vid link here. if I CAN POST LINK. i BEING BANNED FOR IMPROPER USE OF QUOT?? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

Metal is hot, nice job.  Is that a ribbon burner or a blown tube burner?

The flame is spreed out in a 3" defusing pattern.  Much like a rose bud. so directly facing material would be more evenly heated.  Insulating brick could not handle the Pressures im exerting on them.  As far as efficiencies When I'm working my tong materials (just getting started) the metal turns red way before the brick does. Yes insulating would be good if I needed to run burner longer than 5 mins or so. But then I would not be able to heat my coffee on it Like I do now.  lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gas Lines

Metal gas lines, such as small pipe, copper refrigeration tube, or stainless steel brake lines are safest around heating equipment--but-- a rubber or plastic hose over the lines can prove worthwhile to keep incoming fuel gas cold. As forges and their burners get ever hotter, low temperatures of incomging fuel gas has become an increasingly important safety factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Burner dynamics

I think that how large the entrance area of the air opening on a linear burner is has little with the amount of induced air, directly. The larger  the ratio of the opening diameter to mixing tube diameter in the burner's reducer the stronger of the vortex produced by the incoming air; these forces positively impact fluid dynamics throughout the whole burner.

You really need a stepped slid-over flame retention nozzle on a really hot burner; it is like the difference between mechanical brakes and power assisted breaks in a vehicle.

If you have read through this thread, you should already understand what a stepped flame retention nozzle is. All the term "slide-over" means is that the nozzle can be slid back and forth over the mixing tube, and trapped (with a clamping screw) in the exact position to give the perfect amount of over-hang past the mixing tube's end for flame adjustment. The faster flow of the mixture of fuel gas and air is through the burner the more important the ability to adjust that flow becomes.

The other important adjustment in a good NA burner is the difference between the end of the MIG contact tip, and the beginning of the mixing tube section of the burner. Both adjustments are important in a thigh speed burner design.

creating spin in incoming air is the point behind jet-ejector burners too. The side air openings in the burner tube's wall cause spin in the incoming air, but there is no vortical flow in it, because the tube is parallel.

Frosty's "T" has two side air entrances with a central air exit into the burner's mixing tube. When you use the proper pipe fitting that exit is smaller than the entrances, creating vortical flow out the exit. A standard "" fitting, with the same exit opening as the two entrances only creates spin; that is why such a substitution is a bad idea.

Hybrid burners have air slots and a reducer, creating both spin and vortical flow, but their slots have rounded ends, rather than squared and beveled ends, creating a lot of turbulence where it will interfere with fluid flow, and thus offset some of the advantage gained by the reducer. If someone where to change the sots on these burners into proper rectangular beveled openings, they would suddenly have a superior burner.

The printed burner parts now being developed by Another Frankenburner are the future of NA burners, because every facet of streamlining and vortical flow can be include in their manufacture. Printed burner air chambers may even be able to perfect NARB flames.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More on flame retention nozzles

  Today's burners need a more radical taper than 1/8" increase diameter in 1-1/2" length that was the gold standard on flame nozzles for over two decades. I have closely watched the new strumpet shaped tapered flame retention nozzles being offered in the last couple of years, and found them mostly wanting. The whole point of a stepped slide-over nozzle is maximum induction and maximum tuning. If you combine a taper with a spacer ring in a larger diameter nozzle, I believe it will do well on most burners. If you want to try for just any old taper in you nozzle...good luck on your journey through the wilderness.

No nozzle trumps the wrong nozzle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh, you DO know how much I love a straight line don't you Mike? With the greatest of restraint I'm going to leave commenting on how much you've been watching "STRUMPET shaped tapers," be. 

MAN was that HARD! :wacko:

I don't know if the newer burners NEED greater taper ratios but they certainly operate well with them. Makes the 1:12 max ratio no longer maximum rate for sure.

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the visual was GRAND! ARGHHHHH! I just deleted ANOTHER snappy comment about flaming strumpets. This is really hard on me Mike, I think you did it on purpose just to test me!

Gotta love a good typo. :)

Jer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No; the "twist" remark to Another Frankenburner was as subtle as it gets. As to behaving yourself with the typo...let 'er rip! There's always more room for humor. Sometimes I bore myself to death, writing on this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does it take two truncated cones to make a strumpet flare burner Mike? Maybe call it the Hot Madonna burner?

If we adapted mine would we be having T and strumpets?

Ahhhhh, what a relief it is to get that out of my head! :)

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure which design this is called or who's it follows, but this is what I came up with. 

All of the brass plumbing is 1/4" leading to black steel reducers up to 1".  The SS flair is 1.25" to 1.5".  Currently using a .035 MIG tip as I had a bunch of those laying around.  Frosty and Mike recommended a .045 tip in another member's post (for a 1" pipe).  Will there be a noticeable difference between the two sizes?  Using a standard Blue Rhino 15-lb tank and 20psi regulator.  Pay no mind to the flames coming out of the breather holes in the photo.  That was before I made the choke collar; the video is after.

torch.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as design, the air inlet holes remind me of a Dave Hammer burner and the jet mount system reminds me of a Mikey burner but this burner is a Lee Wehr design.

Unless your fuel pressure was lower then you are going to be using normally, the flames visible in the air inlets should be concerning.  A choke is used to reduce air induction, not to prevent flames from sucking back.  As is, that first image shows a very rich flame which requires more air.  The .045 mig tip would make this worse. 

Be very mindful of carbon monoxide.  We all should always, but rich running burners produce more.  It is a stealthy danger so adequate attention and ventilation always.

Those air inlets are quite forward, towards the flame end, then usual.  Typically they are as far back, towards the gas jet end, on the pipe as they can be.  

Where does the gas jet end in the 1" pipe?  I suspect it is quite a ways back behind the air inlets.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

As far as design, the air inlet holes remind me of a Dave Hammer burner and the jet mount system reminds me of a Mikey burner but this burner is a Lee Wehr design.

Unless your fuel pressure was lower then you are going to be using normally, the flames visible in the air inlets should be concerning.  A choke is used to reduce air induction, not to prevent flames from sucking back.  As is, that first image shows a very rich flame which requires more air.  The .045 mig tip would make this worse. 

Be very mindful of carbon monoxide.  We all should always, but rich running burners produce more.  It is a stealthy danger so adequate attention and ventilation always.

Those air inlets are quite forward, towards the flame end, then usual.  Typically they are as far back, towards the gas jet end, on the pipe as they can be.  

Where does the gas jet end in the 1" pipe?  I suspect it is quite a ways back behind the air inlets.

 

Nice to know I made a one off design.  I looked at several since beginning this quest, even almost bought one pre-made, but decided to create my own since my forge in general is of my mind's eye. 

Should I try going smaller on the MIG tip?  I have a couple .025s sitting around.  Concur on the ventilation; the back of my garage isnt' the ideal place, but that's where my vise is.  Once the forge is up and running, I'll move the whole thing to the shed out back, being able to move it outside when I start forging.

The MIG tip is sitting on a 1/4" cap, drilled and threaded to match the lincoln tips, on top a 4" nipple.  It rests just about at the end of the first series of holes.  I'll have to snap a close up photo and post it when I get home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Go with the smaller MIG tip. I like the tapered flame retention nozzle (AKA flare). You want to go into how you formed it?

The one part you can't live with is the mixing tube itself, sorry, but you will have to replace it and start again; next time move the holes further back. The end of your MIG tip should wind up about 1/4" to 3/8" behind the forward edge of the forward most air holes. Do this, and I think that outstanding nozzle will spout a very nice flame :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forming was quite easy actually,... Haha Stainless Steel 304/304L Pipe... Link remoced

Understand what you are saying, however, even though the air inlet holes are pretty far forward, the nipple is 4", bringing the MIG tip just right behind them. Still no good you think? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the air holes well forward of the MIG tip's gas stream, you are combing the fuel and air, whithout speeding up the mixture's flow past the speed of the flame front, so it will ALWAYS burn back into the burner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mikey98118 said:

With the air holes well forward of the MIG tip's gas stream, you are combing the fuel and air, whithout speeding up the mixture's flow past the speed of the flame front, so it will ALWAYS burn back into the burner.

I have some more pipe. Back to the drawing board! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

found these and thought maybe help some visualization on flow dynamics. not sure if they apply being these are supersonic.

Illustrative-flow-field-encountered-in-the-supersonic-gaseous-ejector-a-with_Q320.jpg.71a6c234b87ee471e150c6504c08073f.jpgIllustrative flow field encountered in the supersonic gaseous ejector: (a) with controlled secondary flow and (b) without secondary flow. Some of the basic features of supersonic confined jet is also marked up in the illustration.A-typical-set-of-instantaneous-schlieren-images-non-correlated-in-time-obtained-by.png.92ddafdbf8a555293734a82fe409b3c6.pngA typical set of instantaneous schlieren images (non-correlated in time) obtained by varying the operating pressure (P OP ) in the supersonic gaseous ejector for certain conditions. A red-dotted line is added to the image to visually appreciate the change in the wavelength qualitatively286578188_shows-the-effect-of-varying-the-inducted-secondary-flow-qualitatively-through-the(1).png.9b102ff4fc1040ac23295127d870fdb4.pngshows the effect of varying the inducted secondary flow qualitatively through the schlieren images. The secondary flow is varied by using a gate valve near the upstream side of the confined passage as shown in Fig.Typical-instantaneous-Planar-Laser-Mie-Scattering-PLMS-image-showing-the-dominant-flow.png.c778edfd7bb2e079745a83035072604a.pngTypical instantaneous Planar Laser Mie Scattering (PLMS) image showing the dominant flow features and image artifacts in supersonic gaseous ejector for certain condition (Conditions: M PD =2.0; SPR=17.42; ω vp-4 =0). The secondary flow is completely cut-off and the ejector is operated in the vacuum mode of operation (nozzle started-diffuser unstarted).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mikey98118 said:

Excellent choice to use for a flame retention nozzle BTW.

Thanks. Maybe a result of what we are already discussing, but I was getting flames creeping up and through the 1/4" gap between the nozzle and mixing tube. Last night I welded it on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.