Trevor84 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Oh me oh my I do like the idea of these, what a simple way to add independent control with less bits than adding multiple basic needle valves. Tapping the out I get but do you modify the in? The one in this pic is m10*1 in and out do you cut new threads on the in side for 1/4" plumbing or are you using an adapter? Thanks for this tip Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 19 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Equally important is the fact that they are set up to be hose mounted, and regulator fed from a refillable LPG cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Hmmm equally important is to read the entirety of something if you want to learn, Doh. Thanks pnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 You can also buy four M10x1 male to 6mm (0.236”) hose barb connectors for $9.72 and $2.50 shipping (compatible with; 5/16” fuel hose) through Anazon,com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 As near as I can tell, making two 1/4" stainless steel burners using these valves should cost under $50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 That price is based on paying top dollar for small amount of S.S. pipe in a seller's market. And includes the needle valves and hose barbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 12, 2021 Author Share Posted June 12, 2021 Turbulent Flame Both the gentle flame of a Bunsen burner in the lab and the restless flames of a camp fire are laminar. The differences is that that lab burner's fuel and air are premixed. All turbulent flames are all premixed. Adiabatic laminar flame temperature of any given fuel and oxidizer is predictable; this doesn't hold true with turbulent flame. The same propane that is rated at 2600degrees in an air-propane torch is rated at 3600 degrees in a jet engine; the difference? Simply the amount of mechanical manipulation. What is being manipulated? Flame speed. The surest way to get more temperature out of a gas burner, with any given fuel/air mixture, is to increase flame speed. And the surest way to keep heat from racing out the exhaust opening in your forge is to slow that flame back down. Combusted gases begin to slow down as soon as they leave the flame envelope. But small flames decelerate much faster than large flames; his brings us to burner sizes. One 3/4" burner will use the same fuel as two 1/2 burners. One 1/2" will use the same fuel as two 3/8" burners; one 3/8" equals two 1/4". But exhaust speed slows with burner size reduction. Multi-port burners (ex ribbon burners) are the obvious choice to take advantage of these facts. Not so obviously "no single shoe fits all," and no single burner design fits everyone's plans. Thus, small burners and ribbon burners will both continue to advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 14, 2021 Author Share Posted June 14, 2021 Dead Center Whatever burner design you choose, its gas jet needs to be dead center and axially aligned with the mixing tube. The simplest way to get this result is to do your drilling accurately in a lathe (best), or drill press with press vice (good enough if you're careful), in a perfect world... In the real world, most people don't have these choices, but must make do with repurposed parts that have plus/minus tolerances. My choice for leveling the playing field are socket head set screws, anywhere from one to as many as six, depending on how close the parts and drilling work turn out. But, that just takes care of the gas tube. The gas orifice in its end well probably be a soft copper MIG contact tip, or a short brass torch tip, 3D printer tip, or LPG gas tip, etc: any of these short brass parts must the threaded into the end of the gas tube, and can be canted out of axial alignment, if the end of that gas tube doesn't sit at true right angles with the tube. Fortunately, you don't need a lathe to accomplish this; just chuck the gas tube in a drill motor, and spin it under a grinder or rotary tool's accessory. Then, check the result with a square. A soft copper MIG contact tip sometimes (not very often) has a different problem; they get bent out of alignment fairly easily, because they are all too malleable. Fortunately, they been right back into alignment, just as easily, and can be checked with a straight edge, set against the gas tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Williams Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 On 5/28/2021 at 2:50 AM, Mikey98118 said: Hoke tips are 7/8” long, made from 1/4” hex stock, with 3/16” long flats, are bluntly tapered forward, and have 3/16-40 by 1/4” long male thread; they come in four different sizes: Extra fine flame tips, stamped #04, have a 0.010” diameter orifice, and are fit for 1/8" burners. Fine flame tips, stamped #03, have a 0.014” diameter orifice, and are fit for 1/4" burners. Medium flame tips, stamped #02, have a 0.023” diameter orifice, fit for 3/8 burners. Do these orifice sizes apply for each of the tip types -- acetylene, propane, and natural gas? I haven't found the orifice dimensions listed at several different vendors. I cannot think what else would be different about them if not for the orifice size. I would like to know if you know what type of thread the 3/16-40 Hoke tips are also. I have found options including UNS, ME, and UST (Universal Straight and Taper). Since the Hoke tips are gas fittings, the UST seems to make sense, but it is specific to model builders and may be too obscure to be in the Hoke Product. Is it perhaps something more common like NPT? I would like to try drilling and tapping the orifice of the Mensi valve to take Hoke tips. I suspect that there may not be enough wall left, but if I can find the 3/16-40 tap and drill measurements, then I can measure closely and do the math. I did find some 1/4-40 to 3/16-40 reducer bushings for sale, which gave me hope that I may be able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 16, 2021 Author Share Posted June 16, 2021 No. You must have gone to the Otto Frie Jewelers supply site to find tips for acetylene. Tip sizes go up from Pinpoint,fine, medium, and large. But also by fuel gas. Acetylene is smallest, propane/butane is next smallest, and natural gas is huge. I was mistaken in the amount of orifice sizes for these tips; they come in eleven different sizes, but acetylene tips for Hoke torches are kind of rare; I just ran across them today 3/16-40 and a few other threads, etc. are used by model makers these days. Parts and tools wax and wane in the marketplace according to the popularity of the work they're used for. I know you can buy dies and taps for this thread, because I have done so. As to the thread come from gas fittings...probably not. My experience in fitting sizes on tooling, is that they are either an engineering preference, or a sales gimmick. For instance 1/4-27 is an oddball thread for MIG tips. 1/4-28 was always the logical choice. But the oddball thread would have kept people from easily making their own parts. After more than half a century, MIG tips are just starting to come on the market in 1/4-28 thread, since anyone can get the oddball taps and dies these days. I just don't know if this thread will work out with these valves, but if they don't, the problem may turn out to be that this thread isn't quite large enough; not that it will be too large. I have re-threaded four of these valves with 1/4-27 thread; it went perfectly with that larger thread. In this case, a little solder in the present thread should allow you to get around the problem. Or, you might prefer liquid aluminum? Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Williams Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 (edited) Thank you for clearing that up for me, Mike. Jewelers Toy Store, Contenti, and Otto Frie Jewlers each had acetylene tips and torches. Without knowing any better, I did not think it the slightest bit unusual. I was also considering soldering the valve threads as you suggest (but hadn't thought of aluminum, which I do prefer now that you mention it), but that is plan B. I first want to try to make a reducing bushing out of the original Mensi orifice. I am including two pictures below. Both show a 9/64" drill bit which is only slightly loose in the bore of the orifice piece (the orifice itself being smaller, approximately 1/16" at the end). The more close up photo also shows a 3/16" drill bit lined up behind the orifice piece (the tap drill is probably a #20 or a #23 - still trying to verify). There is very little clearance, but the drill bit is also angled slightly. I don't know know if I have the skill set to open up that hole correctly or not, but I can go straight to working on the valve side if it doesn't work out. Edited June 16, 2021 by Chris Williams Clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 16, 2021 Author Share Posted June 16, 2021 It is best to use a long enough part for your gas orifice, so that the forward end of the burners three air openings can end 1/4" beyond the orifice's tip, and still be long enough to supply adequate intake air; this is why I chose MIG contact tips with 0.015" capillary tubing for my 1/4" burners. If your air openings are too long, no harm is done; that can't be said about too short. I'm thinking about mounting Hoke tips on gas tubes, which can be slid back and forth in burner mixing tubes. For direct mounting into a needle valve, the burner should be 1/8" size, to be absolutely certain you air openings will work out. That said, you might do just fine with Hoke tips in a 1/4" burner. I deliberately over engineer everything, since it's easy to de-tune a burner, but the opposite "just ain't so." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 16, 2021 Author Share Posted June 16, 2021 Mounting a burner's gas orifice directly into a needle valve, or directly into the gas tube of a propane torch-head is a very convenient way to keep cost and size down in small burners. The down side to this arrangement is the need to provide enough length for the air intakes, I enjoy working that out, but I might be kinda sick in the head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Williams Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Thanks Mike. I know that the measurements are available, but I still need to get parts in hand to turn them over and measure them myself and poke them to actually get it. I also bought some lengths of tube that I can tap one end and thread the other (post-solder) to extend the Hoke tips where needed. I got two of the two-pack Mensi valves to experiment with. I was going to try to make one each 1/8", 1/4", and 3/8", with the extra being a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 Me too; their price was just to good to resist. I figure a pair of 1/4" burners and a pair of 3/8"; it's kind of hilarious, since I'm supposed to be making canister-mount burners this summer. The next book is growing all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 Brass Fitting Connector Metric M10x1 Male to Barb Hose ID 6mm 4pcs These come as a set of four, which is pretty convenient to mount hose to these burners; you can buy them from Amazon.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 6mm equals 0.236" which is just over 5/16". I prefer a barbed fitting to be a little tight in hose; stretching it a hare. So, 6mm barbs are exactly what I would choose to connect to 5/16" fuel gas hose. 5/16" hose is the most common size for twin torch hoses; my favorite source for propane hose; it is usually the least expensive choice, and much more flexible than standard propane hose. One thing to watch out for is to choose multiple fuel gas hose. Never acetylene hose; it is incompatible with LPG gases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 0.236" is a tad under 1/4". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 18, 2021 Author Share Posted June 18, 2021 You're right; I ran the train right off the bridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 18, 2021 Author Share Posted June 18, 2021 Pack of 2 stainless steel tube. High quality 304 stainless steel. Length 12" (30cm). Out diameter 1 mm, wall thickness 0.3 mm, inner diameter 0.4 mm. I just ran across these on Amazon.com for $5.29; they should make acceptable gas orifices for 1/4" burners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 18, 2021 Author Share Posted June 18, 2021 Needle valves are great for fine control of gas flow, but not for completely shutting off gas flow. Even if a needle valve will completely shut off flow, when new, they tend to start leaking flow past the needle over time. These valves (Mensi) need to be hose or copper tubing mounted, and limited to a maximum of 30 PSI, which makes them good for use down stream from a variable pressure regulator. Unlike needle valves, a variable pressure regulators will shut flow off completely, when set to zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 Also, don't try to close the needle valve with extra torque, after it has seated, in an attempt to get it to stop flow. There is a reason the knobs/handles are so small. Metal needle, metal seat. Anything over just seated risks deforming the needle and/or seat. Finger tight. Same idea with the valves on your propane tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 This is why I try to get everybody using a propane burner to install a 1/4 turn ball valve right after the regulator. Of course then I get to explain why they aren't much good for adjusting the flame. <sigh> I'll just go back to reading along now. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 "You mean I should back the regulator out every time! Why?" I like valves. Bottle to regulator, to ER shutoff ball valve, to hose, to second shutoff ball valve, to idle ball valve with bypass needle valve, to individual burner needle valves, to burners. Control freak maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 Just use the tank valve then. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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