Burners 101

[Mikey98118]

Yes, I do. There is a flame photo near the bottom of page 13 of this thread, BUT, I caution everyone not to look to its shape, but only the color. Flame shape is dependent on many things. I think the best flames I have seen over and over in "T" burners tend to be brush shaped, just as the perfectly acceptable flame he posted of his front burner is. Furthermore, my large burners all tend to the same brush shape, for whatever that information is worth.

[Mikey98118]

Near the bottom of page 13 on this thread is a photo of a Mikey burner flame. BUT, I caution people to pay no attention to its shape. Different burner designs create different shaped flames. Moreover, different size burners of the same deign can create different shapes. All of my larger burners make brush shaped flames, just like the flame in the photo of his forward burner. I thought that flame was an excellent example of a perfectly fine "T" burner flame.

The color an single envelope are acceptable clues, though even there, I have seen lighter blue flames that I suspect are slightly better

 

the main thing to look for is little or no secondary flame, and no slighted green tint.

[Frosty]

The one on the canister? I'm embarrassed how long it took to find page 13 so I thought I'd link it and save others the hassle.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/46536-burners-101/page/13/

Phil: You want to start trimming the mig tips until you start to see a flame looking like or similar to the flame on the burner near the bottom of the page. There is another but it's against a light colored background and hard to see.

I'll be more than happy to take a look at pics anytime but having an idea of what you're looking for should help.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Mikey98118]

I just used your shortcut, and this allows the photo to be enlarged, showing the flame in its actual tint (instead of being darkened by the background), and somewhat ragged outline; right on the money.

[Another FrankenBurner]

Just to put it out there, you can link directly to a post.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/46536-burners-101/page/13/?tab=comments#comment-528496

 

[Mikey98118]

Canister-mount 3/8” high-speed tube burner

My notes on this burner are Twenty-one pages long; this summary is an attempt to fit it into IFI

 

Making miniature gas jets from capillary tube & MIG contact tips     is already considered on page 103 of Burners 101.

 

Materials list:

(1)  The preferred choice of gas orifice is a 1/16" OD by 0.020" ID stainless steel capillary tubing from Ziggy’s Tubes & Wires Tel: 931-277-5662. Second choice is a 1/6" OD by 0.022" ID by 12” length of stainless-steel tubing from McMaster-Carr

 

(2) Tweco 14T tip for .052” welding wire (actual orifice diameter is supposed to be 0.064”). You can use a longer Contact tip in this burner, but not a shorter one.

 

(3) The mixing tube is a #304 seamless stainless-steel tube, cut item #12924 from Onlinemetals.com); its outside diameter is 0.625”, and its inside diameter is 0.495”.

 

(1)  The flame nozzle’s spacer ring is a #304 seamless stainless-steel tube (item #12927 from Onlinemetals.com); its outside diameter is 0.750” and inside diameter is 0.0620”.

 

(2)  The choke sleeve is also cut from item #12927 above.

 

(3)  The flame retention nozzle is a 0.875” O.D. by 0.777” I.D. #316 stainless steel tube (item #12956 from Onlinemetals.com) 2” long

 

(4)  1/2 x 1/2-inch steel angle, about 4-inches long, that you cut from a 10” to 12” random length; this is used as a layout tool, allowing you to scribe lines parallel to the tubing axis, by using it as your straight edge; it is listed in this section so that you can order it at the same time as your tubing.

 

(5)  Six 8-32 by 3/8” long stainless-steel set screws. Don’t go smaller, or the Allen wrench will have a tendency to be rounded into uselessness when tightening down the screws. Don’t go larger, or you won’t be able to use a rotary tool to drill the holes for a larger tap. These screws must be stainless steel; not mild steel.

 

(6)  A 1/2” long 8-32 set screw, two flat washers and two matching nuts, to be used instead of a thumbscrew. Or use a stainless steel 8-32 hex head or pan head screw, by hammering the head to form a thumbscrew shape on it; in that case you need to add one nut and two washers.

 

(7)  The BernzOmatic Basic Use UL2317 Brass Pencil Flame Propane Torch Head ($17 from Amazon.com).

 

 

Needed tools you may not already have:

(A)  1/4” electric drill, micro drill, drill press, or manual hand drill.

 

(B)  A low-cost set of diamond coated rotary files from Amazon.com or eBay is recommended.

 

(C)  A combination square can be handy, but isn’t a necessity.

 

(D)  An 8-32 high speed steel starting tap; this is going to be used in stainless steel, so go for quality, and do not settle for a plug tap, or a high carbon steel tap.

 

(E)  Two number #27 drill bits for doubled walls, and one #29 bit for single wall penetrations.

 

(F)  Allen wrench for the set screws.

 

(G) A set of torch tip cleaners.

 

(H)  Two sheets of fine emery cloth; one #200 grit, and one #400 grit.

 

(I)    Ink marker with fine point from your local grocery store.

 

(J)   Scriber with tungsten carbide point.

 

(K)  Rotary tool, and accessories kit with cutoff wheels, shaped stones, etc.

 

(L)  1-1/2” (1-1/4” is better) cutoff disks and special mandrel that has oversize screw heads, threading into oversize mandrel faces, or the EZ lock mandrel and cutting disk system.

 

(M) One high speed steel starting tap to match the MIG tip’s thread.

 

(N)  A #3 drill bit;

 

(O) Cheap digital caliper from Harbor Freight Tools, or from Amazon.com is recommended, but not essential.

 

(P)  Prick punch.

 

(Q) A hex-head bolt. You want to take your mixing tube down to the local hardware store, and match up the bolt head to it, for best fit. You are primarily looking to match up the hex head’s points, as closely to the outside of the mixing tube as possible, for layout work. If this means you’ll need to choose a very loose-fitting bolt; its thread diameter will need to be built up with tape, to make a snug fit in the tube.

 

(R)  A roll of electrical tape, or duct tape.

 

(S)  Thread sealant, gasket seal, or pipe dope.

 

(T)  If you don’t have a bench vice, you can clamp two pieces of wood together, with the mixing tube and other round parts trapped between them, allowing you to conveniently position burner parts on a table. Use a two inexpensive c-clamps to secure the assembly to a table or benchtop.

 

(U)  A lighted magnifying glass is recommended for inspecting the gas orifice for burrs.

 

 

Construction step one: Checking the torch-head for leaks.

Screw the torch-head onto a fuel canister. Wait a few moments for the escaped fuel to dissipate, before sniffing for fuel leaks; if you still smell fuel, do a soap bubble test; with some liquid detergent in water, to see where the leak is coming from. Repair the leak or return the torch before proceeding any further.

    After finishing the leak test, ignite the torch. run the regulator up and down its range. You don’t want to do any work on a bad product. If there are no problems with the torch-head, proceed with construction.

 

Step two: Prepping the socket set screws & thumbscrew.

Most setscrews have a hardened beveled area on the front of their threads; set them in the Allen wrench and sand off that sharp ridge; otherwise, it will leave scars on the surfaces it is only meant to put pressure against.

 

Step three: Make the choke brake.

Use a ½” long 8-32 socket set screw, two flat washers, and two nuts (instead of a thumbscrew) to make a brake for the sliding choke. The two nuts are screwed onto the socket end of the set screw, and tightened together, to firmly trap them in place on the screw. A washer is slid into place beside the nuts. Place the choke sleeve at one end of the mixing tube. The whole assembly is placed on the outside surface of the choke’s end, facing inward. Slide the second washer onto the thread, next to the inside surface of the mixing tube, and ink mark the thread beyond it. Cut off the thread next to the line, and sand the cut end flat. This will ensure that your part is long enough to work securely without interfering with air flow into the burner. When threaded into the mixing tube; this is used with a slotted choke sleeve.

 

Step four: Mounting a capillary tube gas orifice in a MIG contact tip.

Follow the instructions on page 102 of the Burners 101 thread to build a gas orifice.

 

Step five: mounting the MIG tip in the torch-head

The original torch nozzle (AKA flame tube) is unscrewed from the bent gas tube (gooseneck) in the torch-head; most of it is going to be thrown away, except for about the last 5/8" of threaded end; this area is ½” outside diameter; it will be interference fit into the new stainless steel mixing tube, so that the mixing tube can be screwed back onto the gas tube section of the original torch-head. The original gas orifice is a tiny hole in the front of the gas tube; it will be sanded away in preparation for mounting the MIG contact tip.

    Cut off the threaded portion of the brass part, leaving some extra length beyond its thread. Clean off all burrs, inside and out. Screw this threaded tube back onto the old torch-head’s gas tube.

         The stainless-steel mixing tube has a .495” inside diameter. The threaded section of the old torch-head nozzle is a turned part (dependably round with close to zero plus/minus tolerances), which means you should be able to sand the mixing tube just a few thousandths of an inch, and push the brass tube into it with moderate pressure. It is natural to end up with a slightly tapered opening in the end of the mixing tube. Only sand for a few seconds at a time, and then check to see how well the threaded end on the old flame nozzle fits into the opening. Once it can be pushed in with only the last 1/8” outside, go ahead and push it in hard, leaving the threaded part screwed onto the gas tube, to help protect the thread during insertion.

    Push the whole assembly into the mixing tube as far as it will go. Then tap the mixing tube against a wooden surface, until it can’t be pushed any further in. If a little bit of the brass tube is showing beyond the end of the stainless-steel mixing tube, that is okay.

    The MIG contact tip, will probably have 1/4-27 thread. You can special order a ¼-27 tap; if you can’t find one that is a starting tap, a 1/4-28 starting tap will do, so long as you are careful not to allow the MIG tip to cross thread the first time you screw it into the threaded hole in the air/fuel torch’s gas tube. Drill the hole to be threaded with a #3 bit. Copper thread is very soft and malleable; it will change shape, conforming to the slightly different ¼-28 thread, which you tap into the brass gas tube. The MIG tip should extend 1-1/8” or more beyond the old torch-head’s gas tube. You could use a plug tap, since it is only being employed in brass, but then you would find it very unsatisfactory if you need to use it in steel pipe later.

    The existing gas orifice hole is too small to depend on finding its center. Close the needle valve, and then sand the end of the gas tube, to remove its face. As it is sanded away a gradually enlarging opening will appear; drill when it is large enough to easily keep the hole centered. Be sure to keep the torch’s needle valve completely closed while sanding the face of the gas tube; keep it closed during drilling and tapping thread into the end of the goose neck ((existing gas tube). It is much easier to completely clean debris from the gas tube, if you don’t have to disassemble and clean the needle valve, too.

    Keep tapping out the construction debris, from sanding, drilling, and threading.

Turn the torch so that the gas tube opening is facing down, open the needle valve, and blow air through the valve, to further clean debris. Or use your breath, through a plastic straw. Mount the torch-head on a fuel canister, outside and away from all ignition sources; quickly open and close the needle valve three or four times to finish cleaning out all debris.

    Screw your MIG contact tip (gas orifice) into position on the end of the gas tube. Don’t forget to use thread sealant, gasket seal, or pipe dope on the MIG tip’s threaded end. Do not allow the sealant to touch the last two threads on the MIG tip. The slightest gas leak between tip and pipe can cause backfires in the burner. But any sealant, thread, or tape that enters the tip will end up clogging the gas orifice. If you choose gas rated tape or thread, remember to wind it counter clockwise. Thread sealant comes in small containers with small openings, but gasket sealant and pipe dope don’t; use a toothpick to spread it on the thread.

   

Step six: Making the sliding choke sleeve.

You can take your choice between drilling and threading a hole in the choke sleeve, and then using a screw threaded into the choke sleeve as a simple breaking mechanism, or drilling and cutting the choke sleeve to create a slot; allowing the sleeve to slide back and forth over a thumbscrew, which will then be drilled and threaded into the mixing tube.

    The advantage of the first choice is that it’s less work. The advantage of the second choice is a cleaner choke movement.

    After cleaning off all burrs from both parts, place your steel angle on the sleeve, centered directly over the internal weld bread, and drew a line its entire length. Scribe lines across the longitudinal line for two holes, each at 1/2” in from the sleeve’s two ends. Use a prick punch to center mark exactly where to drill out two holes of a little larger diameter than the thread of your breaking screw.

    Employing the angle again, scribe lines on both edges of the holes. Use a thin cutoff disc in your rotary tool to cut out the lines between the hole edges, creating a slot for the sleeve to slide back and forth on. When your disk gets close to the holes, reduce forward pressure in the cut, to keep from accidentally cutting into the hole’s edge.

    File off all burrs, and then cut a slit through the rest of the center line at both of the sleeve’s ends if needed. The sleeve should spring open, becoming a few thousands larger in diameter. File off the new burrs, and then check the sleeve for fit on the mixing tube. You can use the blade of a flat screwdriver to force the sleeve open further or tap the tube with rubber mallet (or scrap of wood) against the sleeve to force it closed, if it springs too far open to suit. Either way, employ gentle taps; you don’t want to ding up the sleeve, or bend it further out of round. Rotate the two parts to see where they fit best.

    Now slide the sleeve into position there. With the choke sleeve clamped on the mixing tube, and the sleeve’s end positioned even with the mixing tube’s rear end, use the marking pen all around the inside of the slot to indicate where it will be positioned. Use the prick punch to mark where the threaded hole for the breaking screw will be in the mixing tube near the forward end of the slot. Drill and thread a hole for the screw. Clean up all burrs.

    If you decide to install the breaking screw on the choke sleeve, run an inked longitudinal line the entire length of the choke sleeve, leaving an inked matching dot on the mixing tube as a reference point. Then use the prick punch to mark a spot, centered on the line, and about 1/2” away from the forward end of the to the sleeve This way, you will end up with matching center marks on choke sleeve and mixing tube. You will need these reference points when laying out the three air openings.

    Now, place the screw and two flat washers over the edge of the mixing tube and choke sleeve, with both washers and the screw head on the outside edge of the sleeve. Ink mark the thread where it protrudes past the mixing tube wall, allowing one extra thread beyond the inside of the pipe. Remove the washers, and run a nut up the thread as close to the screw’s head as it will go.

    Cut off the thread even with the ink mark, and file or sand down the thread’s end to reduce any burr. Unscrew the nut over the remaining burr, and file off the sliver of thread at its end, so that it cannot cross thread in the mixing tube when you install the breaking screw. Only use one of the two flat washers when you install it.

 

Step seven: Forming air openings in the mixing tube.

Ideally, you want to end up with openings no longer than 1-1/2” to 1-5/8” long. Excess air opening length does nothing to increase performance in these burners, because the position of the MIG tip is fixed; therefore, so is the position of its sweet spot. Where the opening starts and ends depends on the length of your MIG tip; its threaded portion should end up within the torch-head’s gas pipe. The amount remaining is approximately 1-1/4” with the tips used in these burners; your tip length may differ; add1/4” 3/8” to that length, to create maximum air inducement and you should end up with 1-1/2” to 1-5/8”.

    The threaded portion of the torch-head’s flame tube that you kept, and press-fitted into the mixing tube should have ended up ½” long, but you only need to push it in 3/8” deep to secure it in place (but ½” is allowed for). Ideally, your air openings will start at 3/8” away from the mixing tube’s rear edge. The forward edge of the air openings should end up between 1-7/8” to 2” from the mixing tubes rear edge.

    Mark the mixing tube to indicate where to drill and thread a hole for the breaking screw, so that it will be positioned at the forward end of the choke sleeve’s slot, with the rear edge of the sleeve and mixing tube are even. Remove the choke sleeve. Use your angle and ink a line at the center of the hole, all the way from the rear edge of the mixing tube, and down 3” (it is helpful to make an ink mark at 3” on the angle; remember to remove any burrs or dings from the angle, so that it will sit parallel on the pipe.

     Use the prick punch to make a permanent mark in the center of one of the bolt’s hex head flats, near its lower edge. Push the Hex bolt into the burner’s mixing tube, with enough added tape on it to make it resist turning. Rotate the center of the marked hex flat even with (centered over) the mixing tube’s longitudinal ink line.

    Every place where a hex point is located, ink mark a dot on of the mixing tube. You will end up with six marks. Now ink a line across every other flat on the hex head, starting with the flat centered over the inked line. You will end up with three lined flats, between three bare flats; the bare flats are going to represent the three air openings, which you will be cutting out, and the three lined flats will represent the three ribs that will remain between the openings.

    Slide the sleeve back 1/2” away from the mixing tube’s edge, and lock it in position. Scribe a line all the way around the pipe at the choke sleeve’s back edge.  Loosen the screw, slide the sleeve 1-7/8” to 2” forward of the mixing tube’s back edge, and lock the thumbscrew again. Scribe a line all the way around the choke sleeve’s back edge again; these two lines will become the front and back edges of the air openings. The mixing tube is going to be laid out with three rectangular air openings, with three ribs remaining between them. The slot in the choke sleeve is supposed to run over one of the ribs.

    Remove the choke sleeve. Ink mark an X in every rectangle between the hex flats without inked lines; these three areas will be cut out for air openings. ‘scribe lines over the six inked longitudinal lines. Remove the hex bolt.

    Layout and drill a hole near to, but inside of, each of the four corners of the three rectangles that will become the openings. Punch mark one-half of the drill bit’s diameter, plus an additional 1/16” away from the intersections of both lines, so that you can grind back to the line, to create perfect inside corners, after the openings have been cut out; pointed diamond coated rotary files will help to keep corners neat. Clamp the mixing tube in place on a table or inside a vise, and cut out the four air openings, just inside the lines. Next, se a small diamond disc, or a stone wheel, to grind away the excess material, clear back to the lines. Clean up all burrs.

    Use a diamond coated rotary file to bevel the forward and aft edges of the rectangular air openings to streamline the flow of incoming air. The aft edge’s bevel has its knife edge on the inside surface of the pipe wall. The forward edge’s bevel has its knife edge on the outside surface of the pipe wall; don’t get these instructions messed up. No bevel is better than the wrong bevel!

 

Step eight: Constructing and installing the flame retention nozzle.

The flame retention nozzle is a 0.875” O.D. by 0.777” I.D.  #316 stainless-steel tube. The flame nozzle’s spacer ring is a 0.750” O.D. by 0.0620” I.D. #304 stainless steel tube (same as the choke sleeve). The mixing tube’s outside diameter is 0.625”. You will slit the spacer ring longitudinally (along any internal weld seam) to allow it to spring open, giving it a closer fit to both the flame retention nozzle and mixing tube. You will also need to pry the spacer ring open a littler further with a knife blade or screwdriver, so that it needs to be pushed in with some interference, after the screw holes are finished in the outer part; this helps to ensure that it will stay centered.

    The part tolerances will turn out leaving you with a sloppy fit. You will need to employ three sets screws, equally spaced in a row 1/4” away from the back edge of the nozzle, and a second row 3/4” away from the nozzle’s rear edge. Be sure that two the slit in the spacer ring is centered between two of the holes in the flame nozzle’s outer tube, for proper tightening.

    It has been proven repeatedly that flame retention nozzles don't need to be completely sealed against the mixing tube. However, keeping the nozzle centered and parallel to the burner's axis is critical to flame stability, especially in miniature burners. A gap between spacer ring and mixing tube, is why the flame nozzle and a spacer ring are long enough to accommodate six set screws for better adjustment in aiming. Flatten the internal weld bead on the outer tube further than the 1” width of the spacer ring.

    Use the ink marks on the rear end of the mixing tube, to transfer three equal spaces on the flame retention nozzle, for set screw layout. Centering and axial alignment of the flame nozzle is needed to establish the best flame shape; if it is canted offside it becomes less stable, and therefore cannot be tuned for maximum performance.

    Slide the flame retention nozzle far enough back on the mixing tube, so that it protrudes well past the nozzle. Extend the blade on your digital caliper, and use it as a depth gauge, while aiming the nozzle with the set screws. First the front row of screws, and then the back row. Then the front row again. Your nozzle should now be centered and axially aligned with the mixing tube, with all set crews barely touching the mixing tube; allowing you to start tuning the burner.

 

Step nine: Tuning the burner for canister-mounting.

These are handmade burners; performance will vary. Some burners can be started with their chokes wide open; others will only allow the choke open a 1/4” until the flame retention nozzle heats up fully, when you are tuning them out in the open air. When mounted in equipment, cold burners are far less touchy.

    Before starting the burner, give the flame retention nozzle 7/8” of overhang past the mixing tube, and lock a single setscrew on the flame nozzle lightly. Then, open the choke to about 1/4”. Turn the gas flow on just a little way, and ignite the burner, immediately turning the gas pressure up high enough to blow any internal flame forward onto the nozzle. Otherwise, the flame will “burn back” into the mixing tube (until the gas pressure is finally increased), rapidly overheating the burner. In case of overheating, you must shut the burner down and allow it to cool sufficiently before igniting the burner again. Once the flame nozzle is heated enough to glow red, open the choke up completely. The choke is only used on a heated burner to produce softer flames for silver brazing, unless the burner is shut down; then the choke is fully closed to prevent chimney effect.

    Practice lighting the burner several times outdoors, but in a shaded area (propane flames become nearly invisible in bright light). You need to play with the burner for a few minutes, moving the nozzle back and forth on the mixing tube to produce the hottest possible fame.

    All this is done by manipulating the set screws on a hot flame nozzle; I like to leave the long part of an Allen wrench in one of the socket set screws, with it kept just barely snug, for easy unlocking and movement without burnt fingers.

    You are looking for a light blue flame, with a single wave front, no white inner flame behind the wave front, and little to no outer flame envelope (secondary flame) beyond the primary wave front. The flame’s outer edge is its envelope. The forward section of the envelope is usually considered the wave front. Gas flames burn from the their outer edges in, so in reality the whole envelope (outer edge) is the wave front.

    When the flame retention nozzle has too much overhang, the flame will soften; a secondary flame will form and grow outside of the primary envelope. Shorten the amount of overhang until the secondary flame disappears; at this point your burner has a neutral flame. Now shorten the overhang more and watch the flame color turn darker blue; it is gradually leaving a neutral flame and becoming lean; this is an oxidizing flame; with some burners, the flame will snuff out, instead. Lengthen the overhang again until the secondary flame starts to appear, and adjust the nozzle back to just where the secondary flame vanishes; that’s where you want to keep the overhang; lightly tighten all nozzle screws. When the nozzle is incandescent, lightly tighten the screws again. The flame will not form perfectly, until the gas orifice is adjusted for length.

    Now is the time when you sand the gas jet (part 1) to its finish length as part of the tuning process; sand its end with #400 grit emery cloth, a few thousandth of an inch at a time, checking the burners flame each time, until you reach the proper length.  Clean out internal burrs with a set of torch tip cleaners each time. After the final sanding, and deburring, blow the jet clean.

    Do not be surprised or concerned by thin yellow, orange, or red streaks in the flame, which can develop after the nozzle heats up sufficiently, or immediately if you didn’t clean all debris from within the burner’s parts; they are caused by a reaction between the superheated 0xygen and the S.S. nozzle (much more prominently from #304 stainless nozzles than from #316), and by other oxidizing metal debris.

    As you become thoroughly familiar with your burner, its sounds will also tell you much. This is handy when the burner’s flame is obscured within a forge or furnace.

    Heated gas rises, and it will enter your air intakes when the burner is held near enough to the vertical position, destabilizing the flame. If you have an extension hose, practice bringing the burner to this position and then backing it off, until you feel confident of your understanding.

    If the burner is placed within equipment in a downward facing position it can be overheated by the chimney effect, if it isn’t sealed by completely closing the choke after shutdown.

    If burner performance suddenly declines, check the gas orifice for a buildup of tars and waxes. First remove, and then clean the orifice in the MIG tip, using the torch tip cleaners. Because of the small diameter of the jet this problem is common. Much less common is debris in fuel hose, valves, or regulator, but it has been known to occur.

    Minimum and maximum gas pressures don’t apply with this burner, as long as it is run from a disposable propane or propylene gas cartridge. Once the burner is fitted onto a hose attachment and refillable gas cylinder, minimum and maximum gas pressures do apply.

 

Step ten: Installing a locking screw.

After all tuning is completed, including final tightening, mark a spot over the slit area of the spacer ring, and 1/2” forward of the nozzle’s rear edge; drill and thread all the way through the flame nozzle, spacer ring, and mixing tube for a locking screw, which will ensure that the nozzle cannot slip out of position in equipment during heating cycles. Screw in a 1/2” long set screw, and ink mark the threads protruding into the flame retention nozzle. Remove the screw and run its nut up to just beyond the ink mark. Cut and file off the excess thread, run the nut back over it. Sand the screw’s face flat. Replace the screw in the nozzle.

    If you wear out the first flame retention nozzle, do not attempt to use the same hole in the mixing tube with the new locking screw; it will be close to impossible to match up a hole in the new nozzle to the existing threads in the mixing tube. 

 

[Mikey98118]

The construction notes above was written by memory about the burner on page 13; it has been edited four times, but will probably still contain errors; hopefully they will prove minor. Nevertheless, when you find one...shout it out. You will be helping all the other builders, who must slog through these instructions to reach their goal

[Frosty]

Happy Pi day Mike!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Happy overcast Sunday to you

[Taylor S]

Hopefully this is the right discussion for this. I am working on building a propane forge. I have taken some inspiration from a few videos and instruction lists, and I wanted some opinions on what I've got. I have attached a picture of the burner setup I will be using, it's a screenshot of a video cause I am waiting on some pieces to be delivered. The only thing that isn't in the pic is that I will be putting a mig tip in the square head plug going into the burner pipe. Will this be a good burner setup? Also, I am following a list for the body of the forge that I saw on the Zoeller website and using a 5 gallon paint bucket along with kaowool and firebrick. In his setup, he only had one burner for the 5 gallon forge body, but I have seen some people saying that for that size you need 2 burners. Will 1 burner be enogh or should I go with 2 for this setup? Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[ThomasPowers]

I'd ask the designer of your burner if that looks right rather than random people across the world. 

If you're designing it yourself you must already know the details of how a burner works and not need input from others.

Me I go with *ONE* known good burner design and follow the *PLANS* not video, *PLANS*  exactly; as although I've been using propane forges for a couple of decades; I do not think I know enough to design my own.

 

[Another FrankenBurner]

This is the right place to talk about burners.

We can't really answer your questions as the picture you have posted shows us only the fuel connection portion.  I do not see a burner.  

I second ThomasPowers advice to go with a known to work burner plan.  (Frosty T, Mikey, Reil burner etc.)  Built to the plan.  Burners look simple but have complexities which make their dimensions critical.  

Unfortunately, there are a lot of YouTube videos with burners which are bad examples.  It's easy to make fire come out of a pipe.  It's more difficult to make efficient hot fire.  Especially if you don't know what it looks like.  Known plans make success much more likely.  

[Mikey98118]

Larry Zoeller features two different burner designs on his web page. It is his later "Z" that he recommends. I agree with his conclusion.

1 hour ago, Taylor S said:

5 gallon paint bucket along with Kaowool and firebrick.

Replace the firebrick with Kast-O-lite 30, and you will greatly improve that forge.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Tayler, glad to have you. Building almost anything based on Youtubers, especially mixing and matching a couple few is sort of like roller skating through a train wreck. I can't really tell what you have going on there, I see a couple things that should be at the other end of the propane hose. What I THINK is a jet or what you're going to connect the mig tip to that is going to block a major % of intake air.  A B A D thing for fuel air burners. 

I'm not giving you a hard time, LOTS of guys are getting sucked into how (NOT) to videos online posted by people who's only qualifications are a camera and internet connection. 

If you look on Iforge under the gas burner section there are proven burner plans for both: Naturally Aspirated (no blower) and Gun (blown) types.

The guys who developed some of them are members here and can be bribed into helping you get them right.

Don't throw those parts away, you can use some of them on a burner.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Taylor S]

I have decided to go with the Zoeller side arm burner setup. I found the previous one after getting overwhelmed by so much info online at 3 am last night and the guy in the video had an easy list so I just went with it. After doing more research I figured the Zoeller side arm would be a good choice, and I only need to change a couple fittings from what I have now.

 

[Frosty]

Larry makes a fine burner, good choice.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Taylor S]

I am following Zoellers "Simple Gas Forge Plans" and am using a 5 gallon bucket just like it shows. Where I'm getting confused is that he only uses 1 burner. When I calculate the volume of my bucket (excluding refractory material), it is over the 350 cubic inches recommended for a single burner. So do I go by his plans and do 1 burner, or go by the volume recommendation and use 2 burners?

[Mikey98118]

The size and number recomendations you are referencing are to get a good burner design to welding temperatures. Is that your goal?

[Taylor S]

Eventually, yes. I have decided to go with 1 burner for now and add a 2nd later on when I want to get into forge welding. I also forgot to account for the volume taken up by the fire bricks, so my vlolume wasn't as far over 350 as I had thought. 

[pnut]

You have to include the lining in the calculation for internal volume. Internal volume in this instance refers to the finished forge chamber

Pnut 

I see you worked that out. That's what I get for replying via notification and not reading the thread

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by pnut

[Leather Bill]

13 hours ago, Taylor S said:

Eventually, yes. I have decided to go with 1 burner for now and add a 2nd later on when I want to get into forge welding. I also forgot to account for the volume taken up by the fire bricks, so my vlolume wasn't as far over 350 as I had thought. 

Building a secound forge is easier and make's more sense than busting out casting to add another burner and to reposition first burner.  

[ThomasPowers]

May be time to reline anyway...

[Leather Bill]

Yea no sense wasting the 5 gallon bucket when all it would need is the spare hole welded up.  And the experienced bucket can be reconfigured while the welder is out in the event he want's less or more L/W/H.

[Mikey98118]

                                             Why Internal sleeves?

The diameter of burner's mixing tubes compared to the diameter of its gas orifice is critical to optimal combustion. Unless you have a machine shop, and way too much time on you hands, you will be limited to the pipes and tubes in your area for one diameter, and to repurposed sources of gas orifices for that measurement.

BUT, internal sleeves, shoved inside the mixing tube, can increase you wriggle room; they do need to stand up to some heating at the output end, and do need to be internallly beveled at the at input end. But internal sleeves don't have any need for being made gas tight; that job belongs to the mixing tube.

[Mikey98118]

MENSI High BTU Sand Casting Aluminum Venturi Burner 1"BSP is a $17 cast aluminum funnel shape with a built-in saddle to mount a gas tube into. The British threading can be ignored by using smaller parts, which can be held in place by crews and nuts. The aluminum casting is thick enough to make threading screws in the its wall (to hold a mixing tube in place) easy, and lamp thread parts will allow you to ignore the British thread in the saddle; it is available through Amazon.com.

You are better off using a 3/4" pipe for the mixing tube anyway, as the 1" pipe it was threaded for would be a little too large for an optimum flame.