Mikey98118 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 15 minutes ago, Silo house Dan! said: ok there are a 1000 plus replies here> Where do I go looking for a good burner DIY? What are you looking for; cheap, easy, fast, hottest, or most efficient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HojPoj Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 All of them, of course! You forgot good looking, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VainEnd84 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 4 hours ago, Silo house Dan! said: ok there are a 1000 plus replies here> Where do I go looking for a good burner DIY? What is your skill set, what tools do you have access to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Share Posted December 4, 2018 I'm going to change your question to "what is a safe bet for a good burner choice." the answer has been a Frosty "T" burner for a long time now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Hogi; I tend to consider even the most hillbilly rigged burner to be good looking if it heats steel well when stuck in a forge! When I took an out of hours brass casting course at a local University; the instructor had a NG burner that used a 1960's hair dryer as the air source and would squirt WD-40 into it when it started making noises. Worked and we cast a bunch of brass---though I was told he put a limit on size of castings the next time it was offered as most of the class was doing jewelry and my friend and I were doing knife fittings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinder Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 On 12/3/2018 at 6:42 PM, VainEnd84 said: What is your skill set, what tools do you have access to? Hi : I just started earlier this year heating things up just to test the burners and see what colour is right to forge weld. My first attempt failed . Didn't leave it in long enough. Since then, I made a pretty good tomahawk, and managed to forge weld a piece of motorcycle chain onto a billet and folded it once into another billet. I found that my back burner seemed to work much better than the front one. Here are a couple of pics. Is it possible that I have too much pressure in the tank so when I open the valve too much, it blows itself out? I have been reading all the replies and I have to say as a rookey, I have a hard time keeping up and understanding some of the conversation. I think I' am in good company anyway. Much appreciated for the help. As for tools, i have my two burner forge, a couple of anvils and a few tongs. Definitely would like to build a hydraulic press. I don't have the pipes like I used to. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 That first flame looks a lot like the flame in this post on page 15 of burners 101: If you look at the very next post, Mikey talks about that flame and how it might be improved. A few posts later, an updated shot of the same burner with a better flame. Here is another example on page 19: Three posts later, Mikey going into a bit of detail on reading a flame and correcting problems. Further down the page, another updated flame shot with a better flame. Mikey's post about reading the flame helped me understand what I was looking at and what I am looking for. Hopefully some of it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 Thanks for saving me the time, Curtis. There is nothing more to add at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 You're welcome. I reread this thread to pick up more information and take notes on reading the flame and so these two posts were fresh in my mind to point out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 The larger the reducer the better the linear burner Eighteen years ago Ron Reil posted my burner changes for upgrading a drilled hole in the side of a gas tube for an inline MIG tip on the gas tube's end. Just as important as the rest of the changes was an increase in the size of the burner's air intake reducer fitting from 1-1/2" x 3/4" up to 2" x 3/4" (two inches by three-quarter inch). People have been trying to get by with smaller reducers all this time; it doesn't work. There is a reason behind why the larger reducer induces more air flow; and it involves the principles of vortical flow. You can look up the reasons why larger reducers work so much better online, or you can just apply my rule of thumb. Three to one (or as close to it as you can manage with available parts) between the diameter of the entrance opening on your reducer and the inside diameter of the burner's mixing tube is about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Here is another flame produced with an experimental burner. The flame on the previous page was using an .025 mig tip which was a shorter (3/4") variety. This flame is using an .023 mig tip which is 1 1/4" length. By adjusting the choke, the flame can now be brought through a range from light blue to dark blue to purple. Unfortunately I was unable to capture those colors to show and have had a challenge taking images which match the colors I actually witness. Here is another with the same mig tip. This one the choke was closed a bit more and more lighting was provided. You can see some green in the flame which was not visible to the eye. The flame looked uniform and light blue. The camera changed the colors but I don't know if that means the flame is slightly reducing and the camera picked up something I couldn't see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 What I am seeing is all excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 These two flames--and they are both excellent--still make a nice contrast. Note that the first flame is a little sharper looking and shorter than flame number two. Also the flame retention nozzle in the first photo is glowing orange with heat, while the second photo shows only a little color, which explains why the first flame has little shooting stars of oxidized material in it, while the second flame doesn't. Both nozzles will oxidize away, and must be considered as expendable, but the hotter nozzle will vanish much faster, than a nozzle from the second flame. Finally; yes, there is the barest hint of green within the second flame, which means it will be ever so slightly reducing. Which brings us to how the flames will fair in a forge. The first flame will get the forge hotter, while the second flame will leave the work cleaner. There will be no scale built up from heating; only during forging. But the second flame will produce a little carbon monoxide in its exhaust, so it will need to be run with a fan-blown exhaust system. Why is a little CO considered a big deal? Because it builds up in your red blood cells, and takes about three months to be flushed. Thus, a minor exposure to CO can be quite dangerous when it's ongoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedelus Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Hey Guys, I'm quite new here and wanted to share my DIY burner design (input is always welcome) and want to thank you all for the information you have collected and shared here. I started out with a wrong setup (using incorrect information) with a threaded air close off system, and have made my way to quite the comfortable burner. It's not the cleanest, looking at the welds, this will be a lot nicer when I get to make a second burner. I have documented lessons learning making this in a different post "Detailed learning curve and troubleshooting with my first DIY burner" Burner version 0.5 Inlet parts: Burn test after troubleshooting, the fluid is from testing for leaks. Also including the schematics with dimensions: For the eagle-eyed members, the inline ballvalve is hardly open, this is due to having the wrong pressure reducer on the tank (1-4 bar) and wrong tank, and will be taken care of. As you can see below, when the reducer is in the least open position, the knob and gauge actually press against the handle. I have tried looking for an extension, but couldn't find one. After this tank is emptied I will get a better tank and mount my correct pressure reducer (0-3 bar, which doesn't fit this tank at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 The burner is a linear design, the most popular being the Reil burner. If you look it up, he has a website dedicated to the build sizes which worked best for him. His page might save you some effort on the second build. Though, just to mention it, Ron Reil no longer uses the Reil burners. Your flame is a reducing flame which is indicated by the green in it. You are not inducing enough air. I would start with the inlet reducer, yours is too small. On the 3/4 burners, it is recommended that the inlet reducer open to at least 2 inch and have seen suggestions of 2.5 inches. Mikey recommends 3x the mix tube inner diameter. I don't know the actual inner diameter of your mix tube but if it were 1 inch, then the reducer should be a 3 inch to 1 inch. This is just one thing I noticed by quickly glancing at the drawing. Burners are built on ratios. The energy output is limited by the mix tube diameter. The length of the mix tube does best as a multiple of it's length, the best starting point is 8 to 9 times the inner diameter. The inlet reducer size is also a multiple of the mix tube diameter. The jet is diameter is selected based on the mix tube as well. There are rules of thumb but they are just good starting points if you are venturing on your own design. If you want to keep tinkering, this burners 101 thread is filled with great information. If you just want a burner to work as intended, look up a known design (Frosty T, Mikey, Reil burners) and build the burner to their specs. That said, as Mikey and Frosty always state, your burner is hot. If you were to put it into a forge, it would make metal hot. Nice job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casapa Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 On 12/10/2018 at 7:45 PM, Mikey98118 said: But the second flame will produce a little carbon monoxide in its exhaust, so it will need to be run with a fan-blown exhaust system. Why is a little CO considered a big deal? Because it builds up in your red blood cells, and takes about three months to be flushed. Thus, a minor exposure to CO can be quite dangerous when it's ongoing. Hi , Ive been reading the site for a while, just dabbling into the art currently and designing my first Forge. Mikey and Frosty and this site have been a big help. I noticed Mikey's comment and thought I would throw this out to you guys, most will know , but some may not. CO is a killer , but CO2 is as well. Ventilation is key. Im kinda fortunate that Ill be testing my working forge and area with a Gas analysizer for combustion products (Gas Safe Engineer). But I see quite a few photos of new guys burners in garages with the door closed. Stay Safe guys. Sorry if it sounds condescending as a new member, not meant that way. CO2 250-350ppm Normal background concentration in outdoor ambient air 350-1,000ppm Concentrations typical of occupied indoor spaces with good air exchange 1,000-2,000ppm Complaints of drowsiness and poor air. 2,000-5,000 ppm Headaches, sleepiness and stagnant, stale, stuffy air. Poor concentration, loss of attention, increased heart rate and slight nausea may also be present. 5,000 Workplace exposure limit (as 8-hour TWA) in most jurisdictions. >40,000 ppm Exposure may lead to serious oxygen deprivation resulting in permanent brain damage, coma, even death. CO 9 ppm CO Max prolonged exposure (ASHRAE standard) 35 ppm CO Max exposure for 8 hour work day (OSHA) 800 ppm CO Death within 2 to 3 hours 12,800 ppm CO Death within 1 to 3 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, Casapa said: not meant that way Not taken that way. I suggest posting this in the safety thread also, can't have too much info on this. https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/28-safety-discussions/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 32 minutes ago, Casapa said: Sorry if it sounds condescending as a new member, not meant that way. You're not being condescending. We take safety quite seriously around here. Welcome to the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Also recovery from excess CO2 is MUCH faster and easier than from CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VainEnd84 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: Also recovery from excess CO2 is MUCH faster and easier than from CO. Indeed it is, hemoglobin has a higher affinity for CO over O2, but the body doesn't expel CO from the hemoglobin, reducing the bodies max O2 carrying capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 In other words: if you think someone is suffering from CO exposure CALL THE EMTs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinder Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 16 hours ago, Casapa said: Hi , Ive been reading the site for a while, just dabbling into the art currently and designing my first Forge. Mikey and Frosty and this site have been a big help. I noticed Mikey's comment and thought I would throw this out to you guys, most will know , but some may not. CO is a killer , but CO2 is aswell. Ventilation is key. Im kinda fortunate that Ill be testing my working forge and area with a Gas analysizer for combustion products (Gas Safe Engineer). But I see quite a few photos of new guys burners in garages with the door closed. Stay Safe guys. Sorry if it sounds condescending as a new member, not meant that way. CO2 Thanks for the update. Its good to know. Where can one get or rent this gas analyzer. I definitely want to check my garage out. 250-350ppm Normal background concentration in outdoor ambient air 350-1,000ppm Concentrations typical of occupied indoor spaces with good air exchange 1,000-2,000ppm Complaints of drowsiness and poor air. 2,000-5,000 ppm Headaches, sleepiness and stagnant, stale, stuffy air. Poor concentration, loss of attention, increased heart rate and slight nausea may also be present. 5,000 Workplace exposure limit (as 8-hour TWA) in most jurisdictions. >40,000 ppm Exposure may lead to serious oxygen deprivation resulting in permanent brain damage, coma, even death. CO 9 ppm CO Max prolonged exposure (ASHRAE standard) 35 ppm CO Max exposure for 8 hour work day (OSHA) 800 ppm CO Death within 2 to 3 hours 12,800 ppm CO Death within 1 to 3 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Grinder said: Where can one get or rent this gas analyzer. Check with your local fire department. They may just come out and check for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casapa Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I wouldnt get too hung up on trying to analyize your own work space, as the CO , oxygen and CO2 levels will constantly change as you opens doors , time you have you forge on for etc. So taking one reading may give you a false sense of security, I have one due to my work, so its easy for me to check. Your main aim is to install a CO detector in the correct place and have adequate ventilation at all times, your forge will use the availible oxygen in a small space and the longer it burns the less will be availble, resulting in incomplete combustion and CO levels rising. Im in UK and use a Fluse gas Analysizer. Flue Gas Analyser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 A CO detector is a very good idea; it can warn you about a lack of clean air in your shop, but just as important as knowing about a problem is managing it. Don't forget to allow some air to enter between the burner pipe and the burner portal; whether the portal is a larger pipe than the burner, or just a hole through firebrick. I have noticed lots of guys stuffing ceramic fiber into the gap between the burner and the portal opening; that is acceptable way to prevent too much secondary air entertainment, only with burners that achieve complete combustion in a single flame envelope. The bulk of burners (even those that make neutral flames) have a secondary flame envelope, which requires additional air to burn. Caution: The air that your burner induces will mostly burn in the primary flame, leaving insufficient oxygen left over to completely burn any secondary flame. Without a secondary air source to completely combust fuel gasses, carbon monoxide will form as part of the exhaust. Your burner will not find air within the forge for more than a few seconds unless it is provided through the burner portal's opening, by being induced by the burner's flame. It is desirable to control the introduction of excessive secondary air, for burner efficiency, but it is utterly necessary to provide sufficient secondary air to completely burn the fuel, for safety! If your burner can't burn its fuel completely with only the air provided through its mixing tube, THEN DO NOT STUFF CERAMIC FIBER AROUND THE BURNER. A movable washer, which can provide a variable amount of secondary air for a burner that is mounted in the forge will work fine, and can be used safely; ceramic fiber cannot in this case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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