ThomasPowers Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Frosty; I want to rebuild my forge so it works better: I want a small portable forge that's perfect for heating 6" sq stock and so economical that my propane tank is heavier after using it extensively. I also want it to be just right for roasting coffee beans and heating an aircraft hanger and I have US$3,25 to spend on it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 29 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: Frosty; I want to rebuild my forge so it works better: I want a small portable forge that's perfect for heating 6" sq stock and so economical that my propane tank is heavier after using it extensively. I also want it to be just right for roasting coffee beans and heating an aircraft hanger and I have US$3,25 to spend on it..... Thomas I think you may have unintentionally omitted to mention world peace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: Frosty; I want to rebuild my forge so it works better: I want a small portable forge that's perfect for heating 6" sq stock and so economical that my propane tank is heavier after using it extensively. I also want it to be just right for roasting coffee beans and heating an aircraft hanger and I have US$3,25 to spend on it..... I know exactly what you need Thomas. I'll PM my mailing address and when the check (please use adequate care not to omit the last zero this time) clears, I'll get right on it. Wow, Mike was right I'm really going to enjoy this subject! Frosty The $Lucky$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 As I recall I omitted the last 5 zeros last time...and can I get world peace as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 1 minute ago, ThomasPowers said: As I recall I omitted the last 5 zeros last time...and can I get world peace as well? Oh, $3,250.00 is enough to get research and design started and I can let you know how many digits to put in front of the last 5 zeros. Sure, I'll submit the change order soonest though I can maybe just throw the soup pot feature in gratis. Whirled peas makes delicious, nutritious shop rations. Good thinking Thomas! Frosty The $Lucky$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Don't forget to Ham it up! Oh wait, no possibility of that getting left out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Forget the ham and onions in pea soup and I'll have to see about having you committed. It'd be like forgetting the water. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I'm stuck at the house and eating off what's in the pantry or the freezer in the refrigerator so tonight I got out my cast iron pan and put some butter in it and cut up an onion and when it was mostly cooked I found some diced ham in the freezer in small bags. So nuked one of those and added it to the skillet and found some hash browns in the freezer and nuked some of them and added them to the mix; two eggs and some green chile and season to taste..... Ham and beans (and onions and green chile) in the crockpot are next... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 To turn the conversation back a few pages now. Sorry. I bought a set of 61-80 wire gauge drill bits and a pin vise to enlarge he orifice on the Mikey burner I'm working on. I already had some 0.025 mig tips so for s&g I used the bits to confirm that the orifice is about one size larger on the 0.025 tip than the 0.023 tip. I then enlarged the orifice on the 0.025 tip, checking the flame after each enlargement. I got all the way to a size 63 before I was able to get a stable enough flame to open the choke more than 3/4". The flame produces at that point was not appreciably different than the last photo I posted (see page 19 or 20 I think). So I decided to drop back a few bit sizes and try again. With a size 66 bit I was able to get a stable enough flame to open the choke all the way. I needed to be more careful in adjusting the flame nozzle, move 1/16" and lock down between firings to find the sweet spot instead of moving it while burning. Then some tweaking of jet placement and I got this. It looks to me like I have more of the blue primary that you said I should be looking for and less of the green hues. Still not sure it's perfect, but maybe good enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesman7 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 I'm not very experienced looking a propane/air flames, but that looks rich to me, I've found that having a CO monitor in the shop is.... ahem, useful. I had my burner tuned neutral in free air, then when running in the forge. at the same settings, being reducing and producing CO, even though it looked pretty good through a peep hole into the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacksmith-450 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 12 hours ago, Jbradshaw said: Still not sure it's perfect, but maybe good enough? Sure good enough ! ... but the challenge to get the perfect one still there ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 29, 2017 Author Share Posted June 29, 2017 15 hours ago, Jbradshaw said: Still not sure it's perfect, but maybe good enough? Good enough is a personal decision. I can only help in pointing out the technical factors, once you're in the ball park; and you are, but that is still a reducing flame. To do you any good, I will have to change the subject. Harking back to Frosty's golden rule: "When tuning a burner, change only one thing at a time," I'm sure you gained valuable practice in changing the orifice diameters, but the gas jet, wan't what needed fixing. I think you have gone as far as you can go with a hand hammered tapered flame nozzle. You could go a little further by ordering a machine pressed stainless steel flame nozzle from Larry Zoeller Forge. How far? You would end up with a neutral flame. But if you really want the full potential you have already worked so hard for, Your burner needs a stepped nozzle. A stepped nozzle is a plain tube, with a spacer ring in one end, this greatly increases both air induction, and flame stability; both of which are needed to "make "the magic flame." How big? I like to use schedule #40 pipe parts, so, when starting with a 3/4" water pipe for the mixing tube, I use a schedule #40 1" pipe nipple to cut a short spacer ring from, and order a piece of 1-1/4" schedule #40 stainless steel pipe, about 2-1/2" long, from onlinemetals.com, for surprisingly little money. Or you can cut the parts and drill the threaded holes for set screws in mild steel pipe, and do the work all aver again when the first stepped nozzle rapidly oxidizes away. Do at least use stainless steel set screws, so that they don't freeze in place after a few thermal cycles in the forge. So, can you substitute tube parts for pipe parts in a stepped nozzle? Sure you can, BUT, you need to look up the equivalent schedule #40 pipe part dimensions in an online pipe chart, and see to it that the inside diameter of the flame nozzle stays within plus or minus .030" of the pipe's inside diameter, or burner performance can fall off drastically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 29, 2017 Author Share Posted June 29, 2017 Which BTW is why I find reducer fittings being used as flame nozzles more than a little hilarious. They cannot come close to being the optimal inside diameter, are always to short for the optimal length, and cannot have the amount of their overhang past the mixing tube's end varied, to get it right, either! The fact is that they do work, in that they can allow the burner to function outside of a forge or casting furnace; unfortunately, they work so poorly, that their supposed utility is illusory, once the burner is installed within the equipment. Thus, we find once again that, there ain't no free lunch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Mikey this is a stepped nozzle. 1-5/16" ID stainless steel tubing per note 1, page 161 in your book. I do have a commercial tapered nozzle, but I have not tried it on this burner yet. I went down the path of enlarging the orifice based on your suggestion a few pages back (I could barely open the choke with a 0.023 tip and the 0.030 was too large.) I think a big part of the problem I am having stems from not having seen a "perfect" flame with my own eyes. I have seen pictures and to my eyes my flame looks the same. But the above picture of my flame looks quite a bit different. Unfortunately I don't have local access to anyone with significant expertise so I can't sit down and compare two side by side. So you're stuck as my go to for questions. So if manipulating the orifice size is not the answer, and I'm already using a stepped nozzle, what is the next step? With a reducing flame that means I need more oxygen, correct? So should I be looking to widen my air intakes? Bevel the sides in addition to front of the openings? Improve the bevel/scoop on my choke? Or go back to a smaller orifice and be more careful in tuning before enlarging to the next step? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 I think I need to either get a second regulator, or hook up a line for a hand burner to my current setup. While I keep working on this it means I don't have my forge connected to a tank and can't do any forging (which is the whole point of making a burner anyway) That's the real reason I want to call it good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Mike: I don't want to butt in, but I just noticed something. The thread protectors I put on T burners are step nozzles. Not good ones maybe but. . . Yes, no, maybe? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 Frosty, I have considered that, and they end up a little small to work perfectly as stepped nozzles; they would end up with about the same increase in diameter as a tapered nozzle, and that is probably better, because the amount of increased area in the nozzle needs to match up with the rest of the burner's dynamics; I believe your set up should match up fairly well with yours. If you also should put a little taper on the nozzles, they might work out a little better, but they also might not... I'm not being picky about this; I have marveled before at the soft, yet hot flames, your burners produce. I think that the balance on those burners are delicate. I also believe that their soft flames make them the best burner to run faced straight down into square forges, like the Diamondback forges. I would love to see a "T" burner replacing one of the original burners in a square forge. Its the one I would suggest as a replacement burner most often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 20 hours ago, Jbradshaw said: I think I need to either get a second regulator, or hook up a line for a hand burner to my current setup. While I keep working on this it means I don't have my forge connected to a tank and can't do any forging (which is the whole point of making a burner anyway) That's the real reason I want to call it good enough. If you want to mail me the burner, with return postage, I can quckly find out what the problem is. I don't normally make that offer, but your problem is interesting me. m.a.porter@comcast.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Frosty, I have considered that, and they end up a little small to work perfectly as stepped nozzles; they would end up with about the same increase in diameter as a tapered nozzle, and that is probably better, because the amount of increased area in the nozzle needs to match up with the rest of the burner's dynamics; I believe your set up should match up fairly well with yours. If you also should put a little taper on the nozzles, they might work out a little better, but they also might not... I'm not being picky about this; I have marveled before at the soft, yet hot flames, your burners produce. I think that the balance on those burners are delicate. I also believe that their soft flames make them the best burner to run faced straight down into square forges, like the Diamondback forges. I would love to see a "T" burner replacing one of the original burners in a square forge. Its the one I would suggest as a replacement burner most often. You're right, the increase in dia. is roughly equivalent to the 1:12 ratio and the threads reduce friction even more than the increase. As air flows over the internal threads it causes a pressure drop on the peak of the threads and reduces friction. Early on I cut the threads out of one on the lathe and it didn't work nearly as well. Will a T in a 2 burner Whisper Momma do? I made this 1" T as a gift for a friend who was hosting the first ever Artmetal Shindig, now known as the Shindig. This is the first firing of the T, it's configured as the recipient wished. The original burners are off of course and Rich made me do the first project. There was a pig roasting so I forged a carving fork, the first time I'd forged genuine wrought iron and I had to weld the ends of the tines repeatedly till I gave up and forged at sparking yellow and stopped before it dropped to orange. This would be call it (T burner .R3) the first generation after I stopped using lamp rod instead of scd. 80 pipe nipples. It's not inserted nearly as deep into the liner as it looks, the thread protector is tack welded to the other side of shiny plate and it's back away from the forge shell. Rich wasn't sure how he was going to mount it till he got to use it a while. Being an accomplished professional fabricator farmer metal artist he didn't have ANY qualms about drilling a 1 1/2" hole in the side of his Whisper Momma to give it a spin. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 I hope you have a 1/2" version of your "T" burners all worked out for the Garage, because I think they will be the easiest size to fit down holes left by cut off old burners, and should work best in some of the confined areas in multiple burner square forges. I am really looking forward to the new thread, although we may end up swimming with the gators be for you know it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 7 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: If you want to mail me the burner, with return postage, I can quckly find out what the problem is. I don't normally make that offer, but your problem is interesting me. m.a.porter@comcast.net Mikey thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it. But now a day later my frustration has abated. I'm going to try going back down to a smaller orifice and being more patient with trying to tune each increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 58 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: I hope you have a 1/2" version of your "T" burners all worked out for the Garage, because I think they will be the easiest size to fit down holes left by cut off old burners, and should work best in some of the confined areas in multiple burner square forges. I am really looking forward to the new thread, although we may end up swimming with the gators be for you know it 3/4" x 1/2" T 1/2" x 4" pipe nipple. 1/2" thread protector. 1/8" x 2" scd. 80 pipe nipple. 0.023" mig contact tip. The usual collection of: tools, drill bits & Taps. Anybody wants to make a replacement burner I'm sending here. We'll rebuild the forge over there. Yeah, like I or anybody can keep blacksmiths on a single: topic, subject, idea or pun thread. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 J, Once someone has got as far along as you did, the burner problem usually turns out to be quite minor. Unfortunately, minor problems can look like a dig deal when they reach your burner's flame Now, you may think you have nothing much to tell the rest of us at present. But, actually you do know something of great interest. You have just finished making a series of micro holes is soft copper. Would you like to go into what that ended up like? 4 minutes ago, Frosty said: or pun thread. Yes; those seem to wriggle around like snakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 13 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: J, Once someone has got as far along as you did, the burner problem usually turns out to be quite minor. Unfortunately, minor problems can look like a dig deal when they reach your burner's flame Now, you may think you have nothing much to tell the rest of us at present. But, actually you do know something of great interest. You have just finished making a series of micro holes is soft copper. Would you like to go into what that ended up like? Sure. Running these small wire gauge bits through copper was actually quite easy to do. I found that the flutes did not carry the chips out very well though. So my approach was to twist the bit with gentle pressure using a pin vise until it started to bind. I would pause briefly, then continue to twist clockwise as if I were still trying to drill, and pull the bit all the way out of the hole. The twisting was an attempt to remove as much of the debris as possible while removing the bit. Once the bit was out I cleared the flutes with my fingers, and the continued as above. I did not use any lubricant for this process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 I did it the exact same way; that's why I'm looking for a better way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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