Burners 101

[Frosty]

Thanks Ede, that saves me trying to explain how to "blunt" cutters for copper alloys! Dad said to take the edge off but I think it's a difference in terminology. The video shows exactly what we did though not quite so much.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ede]

You bet Frosty, glad to pass the video along!

 

[Mikey98118]

Miniature electric drills for miniature wire gauge drill bits

 Various weak rotary tools, which are worthless for other grinding and sanding work, are perfect for cutting capillary tube, and to run miniature drill bits, when combined with collet chucks. Most rotary tools have the same thread on their shafts, which will usually match up with most miniature collet chucks, but there are no guarantees that yours will, unless you purchase your drill  and additional collet chucks together.

 

Micro electric hand drill: https://www.amazon.com/Lemonbest-Micro-Electric-Drill-1-5mm/dp/B01301L2L6/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1490390568&sr=8-10&keywords=micro+drill

Drill chuck and collet set for the drill above: https://www.amazon.com/Brass-Drill-Chuck-Collet-0-5-3-0mm/dp/B01DO92O66/ref=pd_sim_469_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QWCZ9PRZZBXCMYG37BF2   

 

Drill Master rotary tool (from Harbor Freight Tools and other sources) are an excellent low cost tool for cutting capillary tube and drilling with miniature drill bits, just because it is weak enough to be easily slowed down by drilling pressure: http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=rotary+tools

 

Collet chucks: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10Pcs-Brass-Drill-Chuck-Collet-Bits-0-5-3-2mm-4-3mm-Shank-For-Rotary-Tool/371753943239?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D2220072%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D43e81a640c7b40a290e4908844be458c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D191758029756

Note: Avoid miniature drill chucks other than the collet type; I have yet to try one of the others that worked worth beans.

 

[MattR]

So with all my due diligence and all the research and I've done on this forum along with the Internet for flame tuning. I now can want to ask for experience on my burner. I still think I might be running a little lean seems like it's a little too white for the blue flame. Yellow DRAGON BREATH had been dialed back. It is a 3/4" with a 1.5" DOM tubing machined to slide and set screw into position on the main body.  It has 1:12" machined into the nozzle. Also set @ 5 psi. I got rid of the crap nozzle in the second picture. 

[Mikey98118]

You are right about the presence of white in the flame being bad; also there is too much secondary flame, but these are not signs of  a lean flame; it is rich. The first thing I would suggest is to use a smaller orifice in the gas jet; this is a major difference. A 1-1/2" air opening should funnel down to a 1/2" pipe. A 3/4" pipe (or mixing tube) needs a 2" air opening; this will make less of an impact on performance than reducing the gas orifice diameter (about 60:40), but it will still be a lot.

If it were me, I would be loath to give up the fine work  already done to build this burner, and would simply use a reducer and 1/2" pipe, with a MIG tip for .023 wire for a gas jet; once I was satisfied that the changes produced the desired flame performance, I would build a second burner in 3/4" size. Ironically, the "crap nozzle" had pretty close to the right dimensions to work okay. Also, the copper gas tube would benifit from the addition of a sleeve to reduce the inside diameter of the gas passage to about 3/16"; this will reduce turbulance where the gas flows into the MIG tip from the gas get, increasing performance.

Not all these recommendations are needed to upgrade performance to where you are satisfied with it. I'm a well known perfectionist, but have come to agree with Frosty that good enough is good enough. The nice thing about threaded parts is that it makes a burner easy to change and check, one step at a time.

There are various ways to mount a gas tube and jet inline at the opening to a burner. but whichever way people choose, I think this is the right direction for the next generation of burners.

[Frosty]

I can't disagree on most counts Mike but first thing I'd do is open that choke plate up and lean out this burner. I try not to rebuild things until I run out of reasonable options for tuning. Frankly I'd be surprised if a properly built linear burner COULD run lean with a choke even close to that position. A person would have to mismatch the heck out of the components for that to happen.

Frosty The Lucky.

[MattR]

That was the before picture setup. I removed the choke. The dragons was rising with that in it.  I can open up the ports and machine the lip out of the       1 1/2" bell reducer, ther is agood 3/16 of a flat lip. This is the new setup.  When I took that picture it was 2 a.m. when I went back out there this morning I realized I had turned up my regulator to 10 psi for that picture that I posted sorry about that. The pipe body does slide all the way through so it lines up with taper in the nozzle. Oh yeah no need to bust on the white tape I already pulled apart all the other fittings. I bought it with the supplies and the person didn't put the yellow tape in the bag that I bought so I had to go buy another one. That's the only fitting i haven't dealt with yet. 

[MattR]

So I couldn't resist ribbing back out and swapping out the mig tip I had 23 and 25's, dropped the 25 in and walla much nicer, you judge.  So I have completely missed any talking about 2" bell reducers. Just looked on the web wow can we say large. My machined out one measured 1.9375". If you think i need to open up my air flow, I will.  

6psi

[Mikey98118]

Okay; that is a much better flame. Most people would say that is all the performance you need in a flame, and most people would be quite right--for them; that doesn't mean that is the best you can do, if you think it's worthwhile. You are so close now, that I think an internal sleeve in your gas tube would give you the rest. On the other hand, good enough is good enough for sane people; so, you tell me please; is it good enough yet?

Frosty; you nade a giid oint, but it looks like both our answers were out of date before we made them. Care to try again with the second burner?

That should read " Frosty; you made a good point,"

[MattR]

You both have great ideas, I really appreciate the suggestions, and will entertain them. Thanks for not giving me any Mikey burn and frost bite along the way. I too am hard on myself.  Can you imagine if it wasn't for people who are detail oriented and have the drive like us in this world. I hold a mech. degree, however I work in the service industry.  To many engineers build amazing stuff without service in mind, that is why I made this burner so easy to access and adjust everything. So even my air intake cuts that aren't straight kill me too show the shotty work i did there.  Ha ha

[Mikey98118]

Torch tip cleaners

Not every set of torch tip cleaners have the same reamer sizes (round files) in them. You want a set with reamers meant to work in torch tips as small as number six; this equals 77-78 wire gauge sizes, which are .016” to .018” diameters.

"Mikey burn and frost bite"? How dare you tell the truth on us like that (LOL).

[aessinus]

I too am beginning into burner trials.  A major portion of my needs are in jewelry-sized work; I started out with 3/8 & 1/4 inch endeavors.  Thanks to everyone for posting the moon-sized mass of information.  I'll keep reading.

"Mikey burn and frost bite" forced me to post.  Now I'll clean up the coffee I spat all over my desk.

 

[Frosty]

12 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Frosty; you nade a giid oint, but it looks like both our answers were out of date before we made them. Care to try again with the second burner?

That should read " Frosty; you made a good point,"

Okay, I'll stop searching translation programs, all I could tell at first is it wasn't Gaelic. 

"Mikey burn and Frost bite." Oh boy that could turn into a . . . thing. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Could turn into a thing? Oh I knew we were past that point when first I sow it! One of the best thing about old age is the knowledge that if we want to enjoy a good laugh, we must appreciate being the brunt of the joke. How much better life would have been if I'd learn that at five, instead of sixty-five  

[Mikey98118]

aessinus,

I am always happy to discuss small burners and air/fuel hand torches. Any questions?

I hope this thread will wander a little far afield at times; even into oxy-fuel torches. Like foreign travel gives a hind quarters view of our own places, seemingly irrelevant equipment can give us critical insight into the tools we are trying to design and construct. Anyone can find step by step instructions on how to make good burners. I expect most readers of this thread are trying scrounge information on how to successfully execute their own burner ideas.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Good to know we can venture into alternative burners for forges. I am planning to try a Gaco MR-750 kiln burner that I have on hand. It's fairly large for a forge but it idles down to a soft flame at 2 psi and really cooks at 15 psi. I'm thinking at 2 psi it should heat my 20 lb propane tank forge economically.

[Jbradshaw]

Here is my first go at a 1/2" "Mikey burner". The accelerator tube is 1/8" schedule 80 pipe nipple 3" long with a short 0.023 mig tip. This is running at 5 psi. None of the advanced performance options (grinding down the bell reducer or forging a flare to the choke sleeve) have been added at this point  

I cut the air openings too long so that's one thing I know I need to fix next time around. 

 

 

[Mikey98118]

Okay, I would call that an almost right flame. Go ahead and finish the beveling and it should end up with an everything you want flame. Why so far from a finished flame if, as I insist, your burner is almost there? It is because of the burner size. My half inch burners use a MIG tip for .023" welding wire, only because there is no such thing as a smaller MIG tip; and it needs one. Unfortunately, that would take the addition of capillary tube to accomplish. It is easier to just finish all the recommended construction steps.

[Frosty]

On 3/30/2017 at 2:53 PM, Mikey98118 said:

Could turn into a thing? Oh I knew we were past that point when first I sow it! One of the best thing about old age is the knowledge that if we want to enjoy a good laugh, we must appreciate being the brunt of the joke. How much better life would have been if I'd learn that at five, instead of sixty-five  

I've been hearing the frost bite thing since kindergarten and I had no idea what they were talking about. I've been expecting to hear that one since I subbed to the forum. I don't get such a nice clean association for "Mikey burn" though, sure it's obvious but a stretch. First time I saw your name in a strong enough context to remember it I visualized you carrying my gear between waterways or at the train station. 

Not the sort of game I've played in public since I discovered I was good enough at it to get my butt kicked regularly, shortly after I discovered college profs have zero sense of humor. 

I still don't get the old age thing though, when does that happen? I'm 65 and haven't noticed any urge to grow up. I'm doing what my Mother did too, she refused to be middle aged, she went directly from young to old, passed away just before she made it to old at 89. Stubborn gal died young. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Yes, the porter jokes started and died in grade school. Never gave a darn about them; used to really frustrate the halfwits.  I new a girl named Penny Nickels; now there was a gal who had a right to bitch; no way her parents didn't know what they were doing. First time I heard A Boy Named Sue on the radio, I thought about her all over again.

[Frosty]

A lot of parents make jokes of their kids names. Bad business that. I went to school with a Chester Fields, the brothers, Frank and Jesse James, Peter Moss, Sterling Silvers. I'm blanking on others there were lots of kids through school who'd been cursed by their parents sense of "humor."

Oh well, toughens us up.

Frosty The Lucky.

[MattR]

 It was all in good fun, I wouldn't take the time out of my day to joke with people I didn't respect in this community.  Well it time to get up and get my forge built.  I've got the burn fever. 

[Mikey98118]

And I took it that way. The only reason I didn't have to clean coffee from my computer desk was that I wasn't drinking any at the time

[rjs]

14 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Yes, the porter jokes started and died in grade school. Never gave a darn about them; used to really frustrate the halfwits.  I new a girl named Penny Nickels; now there was a gal who had a right to bitch; no way her parents didn't know what they were doing. First time I heard A Boy Named Sue on the radio, I thought about her all over again.

So my mother used to teach school in the mid west  back during the depression and had the following students; Heck,  Gee, Gosh,  Golly, and a girl named Ima Cow

What were those parents thinking?

Bob

[ThomasPowers]

Flattery?:    Ima Hogg (July 10, 1882 – August 19, 1975), known as "The First Lady of Texas", was an American society leader, philanthropist, patron and collector of the arts, and one of the most respected women in Texas during the 20th century. (from Wikipedia)

Now my grandfathers' given names were Moultie Ampster, Hersel Eldon and John Brack (JB died young when a tractor rolled over on him while he was cutting the bar ditch).  So I could have been Ampster Eldon, Hersel Brack, etc.  (I think if I was named Ampster I'd have to build electric race cars...)