Burners 101

[Mikey98118]

  that should read "...which use .022" and smaller gas jet orifices. "

[Mikey98118]

 

So, to commit the obvious; why go to such lengths as to make a burner that requires piano wires to be cleaned? Well, lets see now...gas use is determined by amount times pressure; that amount is rated by orifice size on any chart you'll find.  And befor you even ask, no, the smaller burners don't use any higher pressures to acheive the same flame effects as their larger cousins do.

What charts? Btu charts; aha you say; every burner is desired to produce more of them, so more Btu use is better, right? Wrong, more work done is better. Forest fires expend lots of Btu, but nobody wants them. Amount of work done is a matter of efficient Btu expenditure. So, it comes down to the right burner. pr burners, for a given task.

What is more efficient than a ribbon burner, then? Nothing I know of; they are a brave new world altogether; emphasis's on the new...

Since you were given a range of orifices that could work in a 3/8 burner, you need a range of sizes in clean-out wires too. For a .020" orifice I use  .018" wire; one inch smaller for room to work, and a second inch smaller for tolerances.

[Mikey98118]

 

that should read " ...one thousandth of an inch smaller for room to work, and a second thousandth of an  inch smaller for tolerances. "

[Jbradshaw]

11 pages in (though I confess I skipped the edits from Miike's new book. I did print them and will read them later.) and no mention of the Dave Hammer burner. I have an idea of what your thoughts will be based on the comments about curved and circular air openings, but would anyone be willing to provide comment on this design? I was going to use this as a sort of bridge in complexity between the Frosty T burner I already built (works great and now way better since I put it in a propane tank forge of the design in Mike's first book), and the burners in the same book. 

Mike I have a few questions specifically regarding your posts if you don't mind. Way back on page 2 you state that a 1/8" schedule #80 pipe nipple 3" long can be used in making the accelerator assembly by threading directly for the MIG tip. Is this schedule 80 brass or iron pipe? Does it matter which is used? I will have to order this part so I want make sure I order correctly. Am I correct in my understanding that this means the lamp part is not needed? I am excited at the prospect of skipping the brazing as I have no experience with this process, and it is one the mental barriers I have with jumping in on the burner build.

You also stated that an odd number of air openings seems to function better than an even number. Have you applied this to the burners in you book? As in cutting out three instead of four air entries?

[Mikey98118]

It isn't a big deal, but steel is a lot tougher than brass; your choice. That would be three instead of four openings, and yes, I did use odd numbers of air openings in all the book's burner sizes; after eighteen years my thoughts on this is all the firmer. On the other hand, I have seen four air openings and even two openings work pretty well; it isn't what I'd call "mission critical"; its just one more opportunity to get a little better performance from your burner.

I may be its largest contributor, but this is no way my thread. Anyone is welcome to contribute his or her thoughts, including a contradictory point of view. You may come right out and rant about my ideas if you like. I promise not to get mad and fling abuse (I don't promise not to chuckle though). In that spirit I don't name burners I don't approve of in these pages. I only try to lead the way to water; drink or don't, as you please.

I am aware that burners exist with round side air openings; some of them even manage to make neutral flames; I wanted more than mediocre performance and part of the cost for that was rectangular openings with beveled forward and rear edges. However, it is kind of silly to go through all the trouble of making a jet ejector style burner that can't even match the performance of an old screw together Reil style linear burner...

[Mikey98118]

You asked "Am I correct in my understanding that this means the lamp part is not needed?"

It isn't needed to build a Mikey burner. The whole point of running lamp thread on a schedule #80 1/8"pipe nipple, and using it for a gas tube is to more simply mount it on the reducer fitting of an old style linear burner, by mounting it in a threaded hole in a "U" shaped strap over the large opening of a reducer fitting, for people who want to build the simplest possible linear burner; something more in the style of a Frosty burner for easy, while retaining the power of an inline gas jet.

I found the profound silence hilarious after all the years of moaning about how hard Mikey burners are to build (LOL) 

[Mikey98118]

Drag good and bad

The "knife edge" on the rear side of an airplane wing does not prevent drag; it does reduce air drag to a practical minimum. Square or rectangular air openings don't prevent drag either; they reduce it. Beveling on the forward and rear edges of such openings further reduce drag to a practical limit.

Round openings increase drag to the maximum there is no stopping this. If a reducer fitting or other funnel shape is is employed it does nothing to reduce drag; what it does do is put the drag caused by turbulence to practical use, by causing the incoming air to swirl. A hole, or even worse, multiple holes in the side of a burner also create turbulence, but since they are all sideways of the incoming air's direction of flow their "swirl" is never harnessed to benefit performance in any way; they just flow down that air flow, weakening burner performance.

Listen learned? If you want to avoid the work of making square or rectangular air openings, use a pipe fitting (reducer) to create an old Aussie style linear burner, or a T fitting to build a Frosty burner. Or, you can ignore physics and do whatever you like; then settle for whatever that brings.

BTW, if you're going to make the Aussie burner, then you might as well spend about $15 for a die and tap so that you can mount an inline gas jet...
 

[Jbradshaw]

Mike

I appreciate your feedback, and respect that you prefer not to name names. I took another look at your book and then remembered that each burner would have another way to build the accelerator assembly. Low and behold you had already provided instruction on how to use a schedule 80 pipe without brazing. A real I feel like an idiot moment. But I will blame some of it on using an electronic copy of your book instead of paper (I much prefer paper but have not been able to get my hands on a physical copy yet), skipping sections and reading on my cell phone does not encourage exploration of the pages. I will see what parts I can source locally, then order the rest online (probably Amazon with free shipping). I am not worried about taking the time/work to make the rectangular openings. I have more time to work on things like that (that I can put down and walk away from without consequence) than I do forging. It was messing up the brazing I was worried about. 

I will probably still build the Dave Hammer burner since I bought the parts before I wrote the previous post, and I just like to tinker. It will most likely end up as "Iron in the hat" at a meeting though. For now I will keep using the Frosty T burner I already built since it is performing well (I like to tinker otherwise I would have just stopped with the T burner since it does the job well).

I have not seen or heard of an Aussie burner before. I will look into them. 

[Mikey98118]

"I have not seen or heard of an Aussie burner before. I will look into them."

I think you'd need a time machine to find them. Linear burners with reducers as their rear ends started out being welded together using butt-weld pipe fittings, and as near as I was able to piece together, a couple of well known black smith/knife maker types picked them up off of the internet back in the early days of the world wide web; apparently from an Australian source. I started looking into burners over a decade later, when they were being screwed together, and was interested in these kinds of details because Aussies were still pretty cutting edge in heating equipment then; but the equipment they were into were for casting, rather than forge work. In the meantime the sources I used are history because most of the newsgroups that were everywhere back in 2000 are nearly all gone, and the information in their files are gone with them.

Like so many other old guys I keep looking back. I call them Aussie burners because the term "Riel Burner" is pretty much a non sequester; it used to aggravate Reil more than anyone else when every one of this burner type was laid to his door, just because people wanted to simplify their names (he is an old guy too), but eventually he quite trying to keep people straight about it; in fact he gave up dealing with people about everything, and let ABANA take over his burner pages; may he find some peace in his retirement.

As for me, I know that trying to keep the record straight about facts people never cared about when they were current events, are pointless, now that they are slipping below the muddy waters of history. Its just frustrating that the forgetfulness that used to take a generation now happens in a decade...I wonder how much of this information will be gone in a few more years (mumble grumble). 

 

[Mikey98118]

Another look at gas accelerators

"Accelerator" is my term for the gas tube, and wire feed welder (MIG) contact tip that serves as a gas jet; Together they become a gas accelerator assembly for your burner. The gas tube is just as important as the gas jet, when it comes to exchanging the potential power of compressed gas into kinetic energy to power the induction and acceleration of air molecules in the gas/air mixture being mixed together and pushed at high speed down the mixing tube, and into the flame nozzle.

I originally used a schedule #40 1/8" pipe nipple, with one threaded end cut off, to use as gas tubes; it needed  a spacer to narrow its inside diameter down enough to hold 1/4-28 thread for a Tweeco MIG tip. This not only required silver brazing to hold the internal spacer, but gave a large area for the gas to squeeze down enough to enter the MIG tip's orifice. The advantage of this part, was that it was easily found at your local hardware store.

Larry Zoeller, bless him, changed the original gas tube out for a  #80 1/8" pipe nipple that is small enough inside to take 1/4-28 thread directly tapped into it. Obviously you are trading ease of purchase for ease of construction in this part change. But you are also increasing efficiency of the burner in this bargain. My original gas tube needed to be 4" long to work. Zoeller's gas tube can be 3" long and still work better than mine.

Tweeco tips aren't the only brand of MIG tips, or even necessarily the best tips to use; just remember that other brands may have different thread, and see that your drill bit and thread tap match them. A schedule #40 gas tube requires a minimum length of 1-1/2" on the MIG tip. A schedule #80 gas tube only requires a minimum 1" long MIG tip.

Finally, 1/4-27 IP (Iron Pipe, or IPS for Iron Pipe Standard) parallel outside thread is only important for linear burners (which employ reducer fittings).

[Jbradshaw]

19 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

A schedule #40 gas tube requires a minimum length of 1-1/2" on the MIG tip. A schedule #80 gas tube only requires a minimum 1" long MIG tip.

I'm really glad you posted this. I've been trying unsuccessfully to find the long tips locally. I didn't want to order a pack of 10 in multple sizes (to do both a 1/2" and 3/4" burner).  I already have the short tips for my welder and was tempted to try them, but I didn't want to introduce an unknown variable because I wouldn't know if that was the problem if the burner was not functioning correctly. 

[Mikey98118]

The beginner is ignorant. The a '"expert" is isolated; each needs the other to see truth

[Charles R. Stevens]

Now isn't that a huge truth packed into a small sentence! 

[SLAG]

Real knowledge is when one knows the extent of one's ignorance.

Confucious.

[JHCC]

 ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι.

Socrates

 

Mod Note: 

eoika fur Accordingly ce smikrῷ to a certain aftῷ toutῳ wiser is that a non neither one thing I know oiomai eidenai.

Translators do not always get it right.

 

[SLAG]

Hammer Man,

That is all Greek to me.

SLAG.

[JHCC]

It's Greek to everyone!

"I seem, then, in just this little thing to be wiser than this man at any rate, that what I do not know I do not think I know either.” 

[Mikey98118]

Egad already; so much for pithy-grabbers

 

How about "The oxen is slow, but the earth is patient". A line I never got to use on a boss, dang it all! By then I was the boss: life is way to fair to suit me.

[ThomasPowers]

My boss would say: "the oxen will be hamburger by the next performance review!"

[Mikey98118]

It took me a long time to appreciate hard ass bosses. As time went by I noticed that every business shat folded had easy bosses in common...

[ThomasPowers]

a Hard good boss works wonders, a hard bad boss just accelerates the downhill trip!

[Mikey98118]

Granted; I had hard bad bosses most of my life. It was only when they were long gone and replaced by wish washy confused bad bosses that I learned to appreciate them. Listened learned; don't whine, cause it can always get worse.

What does all this have to do with burners? Nothing..directly. But anyone who think they will get very far without a functioning philosophy of work places and the people in them is clueless.

[Frosty]

But we're ALL clueless! 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Many of us have been using copper MIG contact tips for gas jets for nearly twenty years, but they only come in a limited number of orifices; none of them tiny enough for gas jets on burners smaller than 1/2”. Capillary tubes of one kind or another become necessary for such jets. Hypodermic tubes will work, but vary in orifice size between manufacturers, and are too easily bent in their smaller sizes. Heavy wall stainless steel tubes don’t come in a large enough variety of orifice diameters. Half-hard brass EDM tubing also don’t come in enough variety of orifice diameters, but unlike stainless steel, half-hard brass is easily drilled; easily enough for an undersized orifice in brass EDM tube to be enlarged by hand, employing small numbered bits (AKA wire gauge drill bits) in a hand held pin vise (recommended), or pin vise drill (not so much). Millimeter size EDM tubes can be employed, since you are resizing their orifices, anyway. The nearest size MIG contact tip can served to silver braze the capillary tube into, by carefully drilling the tips orifice a few thousandths of an inch larger to match the outside diameter of the EDM tube; or by swaging the soft copper tip down a few thousandths on an inch to grip around an undersized outside diameter.

[Mberghorn]

As a budding blacksmith, I am so thankful for this thread and this page in general. Literally all the questions I had about gas burner construction and tuning were answered in these pages. They also piqued my interest on different styles of burners! I currently am using a modified side arm burner but I'm going to have to do some serious adjusting now that I have a better understanding of how the dynamics of gas burners work. Mikey and Frosty, thank you for bouncing ideas off each other where we all can read it and soak up the wealth of knowledge between you two!! Okay, enough ego stroking, lol.

I have found two websites that have pretty much every plumbing part that you could hope to need for these burner builds; www.zoro.com and www.supplyhouse.com carry schedule 80 1/8" pipe nipples in any length you want and they also have multiple sizes and configurations of T-fittings in addition to other various industrial supply needs. I hope my newbie-ness was able to help somebody!