Treadle hammer mechanics?

[Blister Fingers]

Thanks very much for the feedback and information. 

I understand that given what i've said, it's very easy to assume that I've removed huge amounts of material and completely removed the hardened top plate. That's where you're wrong in assuming I had no knowledge whatsoever before I started. I didn't blindly and cluelessly plow through dozens of flap discs to get it flat. I didn't have inches milled off the top of anvil. 

Things took the amount of time they did because I was very aware of preserving the top plate. I removed as little material as possible and spent more time checking my work than grinding, as it should be. 

I was aware that the edges needed a radius. I never took them to 0.

I worked in thousandths of an inch, not by tape measure. . 

51 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

Your inexperiance has led you to make a bad desisian and damaged your anvil buy milling the hardened layer off, your immaturity has led you to believe you are right in your decision to do so. Attacking me won’t change that.

If anybody is attacking in this thread, it's you. This is a topic about a treadle hammer build. Not the condition of my anvil. I'm not asking for advice on how to fix an anvil. Nor am I asking for your input on the work I've done to an anvil that I own. If i do, it won't be in this thread.  I've done it, i'm happy with it, and my anvil is a joy to work on for my preferences. 

Now if you have any advice or input on building or using a treadle hammer, i'll be glad to hear it.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

You are the one who brought up the condition of your anvil and milling the face.

2 hours ago, Blister Fingers said:

This is a topic about a treadle hammer build. Not the condition of my anvil

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

So you then we’re aware of the fact that due to the method used to quench anvils and the mass of steel and iron involved that the center of the anvil tends to be softer than the edges and the hardened steel only a few thousandths of an inch?

you are also aware that many peaple lurk in the background and are ignorant of the facts of anvil construction, modification and repair, and that this is a historical document that may very well be read buy some one interested in treadle hammers with an old anvil with a century or two of wear who has not yet had it milled flat? 

You in no way own this thread, (it is copyrighted to Glenn Conner and Iforgeiron.com), often we (experienced smiths who take their time to try and help less experienced smiths) are talking not only you but the wider audience.

I am in no way impugning your intelligence, I am pointing out the fact that inexperience lead you to make an all to common modification to your anvil that has made it a less effective tool than it was before you attempted to repair it.  

 I am not much of a treadle hammer expert, as I have been collecting knowledge but have not yet attempted to put it to practical application. But after receiving an ASE master automotive technician certification and working as a tech for a number of years I do know a lot about Watt’s linkages and their descendants, such as why unequal “A” arms might be something to consider instead of the traditinal parallel bars... 

 

[Frosty]

Charles: Sure storing energy in a water tower works well but it's -4f. outside and I don't want to club hot steel with a giant ice hammer. Besides compressed air is just so handy all over the shop.

Blister: You're painting yourself into a common beginner's corner. You've made decisions based on what you THINK without enough knowledge or experience to KNOW. If you think Mr. Spencer's treadle hammer design requires a lot of heavy duty drilling they you just lack shop experience. A couple hours with a decent drill press isn't a LOT. If you can't afford to buy a couple few drill bits you probably can't afford to be a blacksmith.

You milled the face off an anvil THEN noticed it's soft. Rude responses edited by self. If you can afford to mill it what in the world are you doing hand filing and sanding it? Want a shiny ASO? YOU said you put sharp edges on it, sharp and shiny? Oh why not you've toasted it by now anyway.

Oooh 3 years of burning rod in high school makes you an experienced welder Hmmmmm? Then why in the world pre-heat soft steel to lay a few passes of 7018 on it? Did you do ANY of the book work? 7018 is formulated to NOT get hard, what good is it on the face of an anvil?

You keep saying, you WILL such and such, it SHALL, this and that, etc. etc. To those of us who've done this a while including repairing anvils that have been damaged to the point of actually needing it, what you write sounds just like a kid trying to convince himself he knows what he's doing. 

It ain't working Blister, you obviously don't know what you're doing. Don't worry, we've all been where you are, it's human nature. If you'd like to read a good article on the subject look up, "Dunning and Kruger," you won't need more specific search terms those'll get you there.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

4 hours ago, Blister Fingers said:

This is a topic about a treadle hammer build. Not the condition of my anvil.

You obviously have not yet discovered how much comment threads on IFI can wander from their original topics. 

1 hour ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

why unequal “A” arms might be something to consider instead of the traditinal parallel bars... 

Charles, can you elaborate on this, please?

[Charles R. Stevens]

As to unequal “A”arms, you do not need as robust or tight tolerances on the pivots, parallel linkage either needs to be connected into two “H” linkage or have stout and robust bushings to prevent side to side motion, “A” arms because they are triangular limit side motion, you will want 4 pivot points ( otherwise you need a robust and tight busing at the head). Equal length hold the head perfectly vertical, and move back tore the mast as you go above and bellow level. The center of this arc is between the arms. Unequal arms like used on cars tilt the mast and use a shorter top arm. This moves the center of the arc to the lower pivot (or upper pivot as the case may be, depending on which is longer) buy varying the distance between the pivot points you very the affective length of the arms wile actually keeping them shorter. If you try to move the pivot points from equal with equal arms will jam up the mechanism. I will have to dig up my racing suspension manual to actually get all the math. 

In the end you can build a smaller footprint and still get sufitient vertical swing to take advantage of the momentum of mass, with a shorter post

 

[Blister Fingers]

I'm just going to ignore a bunch of comments that have been made and say this: I didn't like working on my anvil in the condition I purchased it. I do enjoy working on my anvil after having made it a more useful tool to suit my own personal needs as a smith.

I personally cringe at reading my own thread starter post and my earlier responses. I wish I would've known then what I know now. Please, disregard my first posts. 

Maybe I did ruin my anvil in your collective opinion, but I like it so much as is that i'm very reluctant to let people take up a hammer in my shop. The edges are NOT sharp, despite my machinist brother's protests. Milling my anvil was a favor he did for me. It took me a long time waiting, but he brought it into his work and did it for free. We help each other out in that regard. As a machinist, he wanted the edges sharp. As a blacksmith, even as a beginner, I knew better. When I said "crisp" I meant "generally blemish free". 

I love my anvil. I love working on my anvil. I'm proud of the work I put into it. I love the result I got from having my brother's help with it. He's pressed for time so i'm on here looking for the advice and skillset I should be getting from him. My shop skills pale in comparison to his, but he has little to no interest in blacksmithing. 

All the information is in the plans by clay spencer, but very few tips on where to begin. Here's a question: since I have a bunch of spring steel, how's the likelihood that I can forge and grind my own spade drill bits and Chuck them in a drill press? Maybe if i'm really lazy I can just forge one at the largest size called for and grind down the sides until i'm done drilling. Or I can forge out my own whole set of spade bits. Scrap steel in the yard costs the same per lb regardless of what grade of steel it is. The scary thing about a spade bit is its higher probability to catch. if it wasn't ground or heat treated properly that could lead to a minor disaster. 

I have also thought about punching the holes, but do not know how the deformation in the hollow pieces would affect the strength and performance of those parts and the machine as a whole. I think it would also be difficult to keep the holes straight through a hollow piece, whether it be drilled or punched. Punched holes certainly look a lot better in my opinion. 

Frosty, in that last post you remind me of the people I grew up with. I would like to share this link with you. It appears to be published by Miller and they explain very simply the common grades of welding rod and their uses. 7018 is in there. https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/stuck-on-stick-easy-answers-to-not-so-simple-questions-about-common-electrodes

That's the kind of teaching that makes sense to me as I sometimes have a hard time figuring things out by myself. This treadle hammer project is a good opportunity for me to practice my shop skills. Since it's human powered, there is a limit to how catastrophic a failure can be. I'm aware that this project is over my head. That's how I'll get better. I'll never improve if I don't challenge myself and humble myself in the process.

 

I may end up with a crappy piece of shop machinery,  but I will be better at making shop machinery than I was before I started. If that isn't enough, i'm in blacksmithing for the wrong reasons. There certainly isn't any easy money to made from blacksmithing. 

[Latticino]

I've never seen anyone use homemade spade bits for drilling steel. Personally I'd find some way to get conventional HSS at least (you did say your brother was a machinist,  didn't you?  The ones I know go thru drills like a 10 year old through Halloween candy. Get some reasonable cast offs and pop for a drill doctor to sharpen), but you seem to like to go your own path.

I've helped build a Clay Spencer style in line treadle and used one a bit. Great machine, but the man himself prefers a 4 bar style for some forging operations due to the increased drag of the inline type. What I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet is what I call the "snap" of a properly tuned and used treadle hammer.  This is the spring loading during use that you can experience which at least to me appears to result in extra impact to the stock.  On succesive blows, travel inertia makes the head rise up past the resting location, allowing more of a swing on the successive hit.  IMHO, 4 bar treadle are easier to constructin general  and tune for this.

[Anachronist58]

7 hours ago, Blister Fingers said:

Here's a question: since I have a bunch of spring steel, how's the likelihood that I can forge and grind my own spade drill bits and Chuck them in a drill press? Maybe if i'm really lazy I can just forge one at the largest size called for and grind down the sides until i'm done drilling. Or I can forge out my own whole set of spade bits.

If you value your time at about ten cents per hour, you will still come out way behind once your failed experiment is completed. 

6 hours ago, Latticino said:

I've never seen anyone use homemade spade bits for drilling steel.

Latticino, I make tungsten carbide spade drills offhand and by machine for hard materials (band saw blades, screw and tap extraction) but I have 27 years of limited experience with hard materials.

Just go to HF and buy the drills.  Mr. Blister, with all due respect, if you can not afford to buy cheap and perfectly usable for the application HSS twist drills, then you surely can not afford to build a treadle hammer. Naturally, no one can tell you what to do, so feel free to demonstrate your ability to be rational, should you decide to respond to my post.

6 hours ago, Latticino said:

What I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet is what I call the "snap" of a properly tuned and used treadle hammer. 

Now that, Latticino, is a very exciting and evocative piece of information. Not unlike a machine operating at its natural resonance. 

Robert Taylor

[Frosty]

I never cared for the slide or roller guided inline hammer, too much friction compared to a lubed pivot in a bronze sleeve. Are you familiar with the "Grass Hopper" treadle hammer design? The guy who adapted the Watt linkage to make a treadle hammer wasn't really very mechanical so it's WAY more complicated than necessary as drawn in the plans. However the principle is sound and I know of a couple from online acquaintances that say they're hard hitters and if you're shop skills are good you can use matched top and bottom dies.

The snap of a spring arm is a conversion of the human leg's torque into velocity. We can only stomp so fast but the delay of the hammer accelerating loads the spring which unloads into the hammer once our leg is maxed out.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

Speaking of parallel arms, here's another thing I've been wondering. In most treadle hammers I've seen pictured, the hammer pivot is almost always directly above the treadle pivot. However, rather than having the linkage connecting the two also vertical (parallel to the mast, as in the drawing below left), it almost always slopes outwards (as in the drawing below right).

[Blister Fingers]

I've read each reply multiple times. Thanks again for all of the help and information.

Sorry for the question about homemade spade bits. That's a dumb idea for metal drilling. Especially as a beginner, if I get the heat treating wrong and connect it to a motor, they could shatter and seriously injure myself or others. 

I don't know anything about the grass hopper design, or what a watt linkage even is. It was hard to find information on a year ago, let me do some more research.

I have seen photos of the treadle hammers and power hammers that utilize one leaf spring pack at the very top, with a center pivot. Sometimes they have a guided hammer in a sleeve. The linkage pushes the opposite side of the spring instead of pulling, like a playground teeter-totter, or see-saw. Whatever you'd like to call it. When starting this thread I thought THAT was a clay spencer TH design. It's not. I don't know who that design belongs to. It doesn't seem too bad, now that i've had a little while to think about it. 

The grade marx I believe had the 4 bar linkage from the frame to the hammer. Or was it 2 leaf springs? I can't remember at the moment. That design seems much, much more simple and easy to understand than many others. I do remember that simplicity being an attraction in the beginning. I remember it was based off a design from the early 1900s. I forget the name of it. 

It doesn't appear that the clay spencer design has as much of that spring whip you guys are talking about. I'll bet that when the hammer thuds the work or the anvil, there isn't as much spring to absorb that residual energy. Maybe that paired with the guide tube creates a hammer that doesn't rebound off the anvil very well. These are just guesses based on what you gentlemen have said and what research i've done on my own.

With good rebound and finding a good rhythm with the machine, it is easy to visualize the capacity of a treadle hammer to pack a wallop. At least that's how a hammer and anvil work. The hammer bounces off the anvil or the work pretty well. It doesn't take much effort to keep hammering once you start. I tested my anvil rebound a few weeks ago and it's about 85%. Pretty good if you ask me. The bearing didn't dent the face either. (ok sorry, i'll stop it)

[beaudry]

 I built a treadle hammer 20 + years  ago from a set of plans that  ABANA published .

This is a parallel swing arm design with the bottom arm a straight section of spring steel. The head is a chunk of 4'' square solid that weighs 85#

The pivots are 1'' round bored out for 1/2'' pins . All moving parts are open oil points or grease fittings.

I bought all the steel new , cut to size and welded it with a basic 220v Miller DC stick welder. The only machine tools I had at the time was a portaband, an angle grinder and a decent drill press.

 This hammer hits  soft and easy as well as really  hard and everywhere in between. Mine get used a lot for punching holes and top tool , stamping and chisel work.

It doesn't replace a power hammer , but is really useful, especially if you work alone.

I've broken the ends of the coil springs that lift the hammer back up three times  after thousands of hours of use. 

My suggestion is to get hold of a set of plans for a proven design  and follow them exactly. 

They can be dangerous tools.

Mine is bolted down to it's own concrete foundation block

 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Spade bits are actually old tech, if turned slow enough it isn’t a dumb idea

[jlpservicesinc]

16 hours ago, JHCC said:

Speaking of parallel arms, here's another thing I've been wondering. In most treadle hammers I've seen pictured, the hammer pivot is almost always directly above the treadle pivot. However, rather than having the linkage connecting the two also vertical (parallel to the mast, as in the drawing below left), it almost always slopes outwards (as in the drawing below right).

Changing the leverage point only changes the ratio of speed,and pedal travel  moving to this type of arrangement would increase speed of the head for a given foot distance.. Also would shorten up the distance the foot pedal travels..   It would also change the ultimate pressure you could offer to the tup as it is closer to the pivot (or shorter on the lever)..

Shorter lever = faster    (More snap) but it is also pretty complex when you add in friction losses and such..

13 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

Spade bits are actually old tech, if turned slow enough it isn’t a dumb idea

I've made spade bits for steel and they work very well..  The geometry of the cutting edge is most important.. In smaller sizes they actually drill quite quickly..

[jlpservicesinc]

So the linear hammer came about to get as straight a blow of the tup as possible..  This advantage is offered for different thicknesses with no head adjustment and also why the newest addition with skate wheels came about.. 

The old good foot hammers had an easy way to adjust for a flat hammer strike to any distance.. The problem is when you switch tools you have to move the head again..   This created a lot of complexity in use.. 

Ideally a foot hammer will have a snap when used fast and a full stroke when used slow as with most of them you lose about 50% of the swing when used in a one strike function..

The first pic is my favorite and is what I will be basing my foot operated hammer on for the trailer..    another member on the forum here and I had discussed a foot hammer in great depth with the functions it would need to be truly useful but the thing to remember is " It's foot and leg operated"..    How fast and hard can you go standing on one leg..   If you have ever used a foot powered grinder it will all become clearer.. 

 

The Stanndish Hammer was offered for sale in a lot of the rags of the day..    I don't see a way to adjust the head distant or angle..

There were a whole bunch of these patents offered.. This was just from the first lookup..   They had them with air cylinders, rubber bumpers etc, etc..

[beaudry]

 The advantage of a hammer with parallel swing arms is that it strikes an exactly flat blow , regardless of height setting of the hammer.

This flat blow is also a limitation compared to a hand hammer or a striker with a sledge in that it  can't strike an angled or sideways blow .

It looks like there was an attempt to remedy this   limitation in some of the designs above.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I particularly like the cam clamp for retaining the standard sledge handle in the first patent. Allowing quick whitening or lengthening as well as use if the face or pein. What it didn’t show is a hook to adjust the chain length and their for pedal height. This is the desigh I am leaning tord my self

I had to raid penterest for this image of a hammer posted buy a member on IFI A few years ago, as I lost the link in one of my equipment changes and can’t find it on IFI directly. 

The IFI post is much better as it shows two hammers and different views 

[jlpservicesinc]

45 minutes ago, beaudry said:

 The advantage of a hammer with parallel swing arms is that it strikes an exactly flat blow , regardless of height setting of the hammer.

This flat blow is also a limitation compared to a hand hammer or a striker with a sledge in that it  can't strike an angled or sideways blow .

It looks like there was an attempt to remedy this   limitation in some of the designs above.

Only the first pic offered a remedy..    both other hammers had no fixing..  The stanndish hammer had dies you could replace..

As to foot hammers the simplicity or complexity of design is left up to the inventor and imagination..

for my hammer it will have several advantages of which will be a floating bearing post which will spring loaded so with just a quick step on the lever will adjust strike height up or down several inches..  It will also have a one strike function which will mean I can stand on the pedal without it letting go till it reaches a certain amount of pressure and then it will strike hard single blow..
Next will be a counter balance spring which will add to the head snap on the way up then back down..

and then lastly it will have both a soft and hard connection rod so I can control the tup/head exactly with full feedback.. Or if I need to during heavy repeated blow it will cushion the repeat strike with a soft connection..

[Charles R. Stevens]

I am waiting to see what you come up with...

[beaudry]

Here's a couple of shots of my hammer ;

            

The whole arm assembly can be moved up and down the rear post using  a rack and pinion gear to accommodate different heights of material  or tooling, but I tend to leave it in one position and make all my tooling as short as possible.

The only departure I made from the ABANA plans was the large removable  table. I made this so I can use my swage block as a lower die .

The table has a 1'' square hardy hole [ same as the anvils and flypress ] so all my bottom tools fit as well .

There is some slight sideways slop in the hammer from the linkage, but in practice this is not noticeable  and the hammer is very accurate. 

This is a great tool and really opens up a lot of possibilities.

[JHCC]

5 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Changing the leverage point only changes the ratio of speed,and pedal travel  moving to this type of arrangement would increase speed of the head for a given foot distance.. Also would shorten up the distance the foot pedal travels..   It would also change the ultimate pressure you could offer to the tup as it is closer to the pivot (or shorter on the lever)..

Shorter lever = faster    (More snap) but it is also pretty complex when you add in friction losses and such..

Okay, this leads us to the next question: HEAD WEIGHT. 

In simplest terms, the impact of the hammer comes from the mass of the head being brought down by a leg power (transmitted through the linkage) and gravity (counterbalanced by the return springs). Since force = mass x acceleration, the heavier the head is and the faster it moves, the harder it will hit. However, the heavier the head, the harder the smith will have to push to get it moving, which will be tiring over time. On the other hand, if even if a lighter sledgehammer head is travelling really fast, it won't pack the oomph of a heavy tup.

So, what's the sweet spot? When it heavy, too heavy; when is light, too light? In practical terms, should I mount up a 12# sledgehammer I have lying around, or go ahead with my plans to weld up a much heavier (~50 lbs.) lead-cored steel head (as discussed in this thread).

Also, does the stretchiness of the return spring have an effect? In other words, while a fairly rigid spring would bring the hammer back up quickly and firmly, would it not also strongly resist bringing the hammer back down? It seems to me that a more flexible return spring might not snap the hammer back up as quickly, but would allow a faster downward blow, yes?

[JHCC]

3 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

I had to raid penterest for this image of a hammer posted buy a member on IFI A few years ago, as I lost the link in one of my equipment changes and can’t find it on IFI directly. 

The IFI post is much better as it shows two hammers and different views 

I did some rooting around and found a website that had four large-size images of this hammer; here they are:

[jlpservicesinc]

52 minutes ago, JHCC said:

Okay, this leads us to the next question: HEAD WEIGHT. 

In simplest terms, the impact of the hammer comes from the mass of the head being brought down by a leg power (transmitted through the linkage) and gravity (counterbalanced by the return springs). Since force = mass x acceleration, the heavier the head is and the faster it moves, the harder it will hit. However, the heavier the head, the harder the smith will have to push to get it moving, which will be tiring over time. On the other hand, if even if a lighter sledgehammer head is travelling really fast, it won't pack the oomph of a heavy tup.

So, what's the sweet spot? When it heavy, too heavy; when is light, too light? In practical terms, should I mount up a 12# sledgehammer I have lying around, or go ahead with my plans to weld up a much heavier (~50 lbs.) lead-cored steel head (as discussed in this thread).

Also, does the stretchiness of the return spring have an effect? In other words, while a fairly rigid spring would bring the hammer back up quickly and firmly, would it not also strongly resist bringing the hammer back down? It seems to me that a more flexible return spring might not snap the hammer back up as quickly, but would allow a faster downward blow, yes?

You my friend have started down the slippery slope..     

Keep in mind the limitations such a hammer offers..   
 

The hammer I will be designing for all intensive purposes have a neutral  " No " spring point in the travel..  Springs on top to increase or reserve energy from the up stroke and then with feeder or cushioning springs which will help accelerate the head back upwards.. Not sure if this bottom assist spring will be air or not..  Basically a balanced setup with body weight controlling how hard it hits but also speed with which it operates and hits..  Faster the operation the harder it will hit in free forging mode.. ( I do not plan on it being a forging hammer ) this would merely be for assistance.. 
 
10lbs X 10FPS    vs 1lbs X 100FPS..  Same energy 2 totally different blows with the difference being in penetration  and mass moved per strike..  

Ideally you would want to figure out what you actually want to do with the hammer..   For me it's for when I need a 3rd hand (welding) or for finishing up on swages after hand forging to nearly the desired shape..   
 

it will pivot out of the way of the anvil  so as not to obstruct the anvil or stand in any way when not in use.. I figure it will weigh about 300lbs when finished.. 

I would suggest you decide what you want to do with the foot operated hammer..     Then engineer it from there..    5:1 or 6:1 ratio 

Basically we are talking 2 different ideas as mine will be a foot operated sledge hammer vs a treadle hammer as Designed on ABANA.. 

To clarify:   Heavier the head, the slower it will move..   Lighter the head the faster it will move..    Less mass to overcome...  a longer stroke or travel will increase the speed for a given size or weight up to a limit of what can be pushed on..  34" inseam gives me about 12" of travel in the pedal..  This ratio will = the leverage point of the beam from the swivel of the head/handle.. 

On todays treadles they are retaining the head at the very top of the stroke or nearly so...  this limits snap unless you are using the spring arms which have limits as to flexion due to vibrations in a ripple effect..  It is not a clean return stroke the springs flex and then return after several vibratory waves back to straight.. 

What is your base? This will determine head weight.. 

I believe I will be using a hydraulic source to raise the whole assembly but this is where the engineering and R&D factors have not been ironed out.. 

[JHCC]

From the same website, here's a similar hammer with an attached, dedicated anvil (@Charles R. Stevens, is this the other one you had in mind?) :

 

Here is the website, by the way: http://gonza-rytec.rajce.idnes.cz/treadle_hammers/. No idea who put all these photos together or why, but it's quite a collection of images.

10 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I would suggest you decide what you want to do with the foot operated hammer..     Then engineer it from there.

I'm thinking of something similar to you, actually: not as a power hammer replacement, but as a foot-operated heavy hitter for top tools and the like.