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Prep info wanted


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 I am wanting to try mokume, I have been reading here and watching you tube getting a lot of good info but not finding much on prep. I see that the metal has to be very clean but not much on good ways to do this.

 I have sheet copper and brass, and of course coins available. The brass has some corrosion on it, could this be wire brushed till shiny and used or should I get new? I really don't have much cash to spend at this time.

 Do coins need to be ground flat first?

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Coins are an easy and fairly cheap way to start. With them just make sure they are clean and shiny and use a degreaser on them.Much better results happen with sheet. 

As far as cleaning sheet metal goes use sandpaper and completely remove any oxidization. The metal should be nice and shiny. Then scrub with dishsoap and rinse well. Do not touch the metal with bare hands, gloves are good. Do not waste any time after cleaning, stack and weld right away. When I stack I rinse again in isopropyl or acetone , but be carefully as those both are flammable.

 

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One little hint about mokume and metal selection. Silver is a very showy addition to a billet but do NOT put it in contact with brass or it'll turn into "silver solder" with a much lower melting temp. It's a eutectic thing.

Frosty The Lucky.

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sounds like a good plan. I highly recommend using a press or a vice for the initial weld and consolidation. It is really easy to get excited and hit it too hard. If you have to use a hammer use light blows until you are sure everything is sticking.  Once you are at 50% thickness you still need to be careful, this will never hold together as nice as a good forge weld in steel. It is always a step or two away from breaking up if not treated like a lady. When I have Nickel alloys in it (like coins) I make sure to never ever hit it or bend it unless it is nearly at a welding heat. Unlike Copper, Nickel is tough and hates to move when cool, the difference causes tearing if it is cold.  

Good luck and post pictures! even failures are good, we can talk about solutions if we see the problems. 

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  • 1 month later...
20 hours ago, teenylittlemetalguy said:

I will have to give it a try. I always was so concerned about cleanliness that I sidestepped the concept entirely. 

 

Didn't we flux that first stack of quarters we did in my forge? I know I give the billet a light dusting of borax on those rare occasions I play with mokume.

The big name mokume guys go to great lengths to prevent oxy contamination from foil wraps to charcoal in the wrap. Preventing oxy contamination is a flux's prime function. I'd give serious thought to finding a safe solvent and diluting a paste flux so it'll spray and just mist all the plies.

Of course I'm not really a  mokume guy but I think about stuff all the time.

Frosty The Lucky.

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21 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Didn't we flux that first stack of quarters we did in my forge? I know I give the billet a light dusting of borax on those rare occasions I play with mokume.

The big name mokume guys go to great lengths to prevent oxy contamination from foil wraps to charcoal in the wrap. Preventing oxy contamination is a flux's prime function. I'd give serious thought to finding a safe solvent and diluting a paste flux so it'll spray and just mist all the plies.

Of course I'm not really a  mokume guy but I think about stuff all the time.

Frosty The Lucky.

nope, no flux when we did it. 

 I like the idea of the brazing flux for a liquid phase weld but I have never used flux and they turn out fine. For a solid state weld I think it would be detrimental as you already pack it to exclude oxygen. 

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Well I gave it a shot today. Started with 8 quarters shined with a scotchbright pad, washed with soap and water, rinsed well and then rinsed with alcohol. 4 out of the 8 stuck so I am happy with that for a first try.

Flattened to about 1/32, ground lines with a bullet shaped grinding tip on a dremel tool and flattened. I did some cleanup with 220 grit paper, I can't really see any copper yet, I will finish polishing tonight and see what it looks like. 

Sorry no pictures, didn't have my camera with me, I will get some toniht and post them tomorrow.

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good going! 

do you think it was uneven heat that caused some to not stick? quarters can be a bit of a pain to get the weld set with a hammer unless you have done it a lot. to soft and they don't weld, to hard and they bounce apart. try making the initial weld or two in a vise. 

if you had serious melt happening the copper can get diluted quickly with the nickel so if you still can't see copper I would guess that is what happened. 

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I am not sure what happened, I wired the coins together with stainless steel wire, heated them and clamped in a vice as tight as I could, reheated and when I started to hammer them they came apart. maybe I hit them to hard?

On the melting they were at a low orange heat, I really did not see any melting but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.

 

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You're losing me with your terminology. By vice are you referring to a bolt and plate clamp?

Why the wire? Is this something I haven't heard of being done?

How long did you leave it in the clamp at heat?

The couple times I've made coin mokume I: lightly flattened the coins on my anvil with a flatter. Sanded them, wiped them off with starting fluid, clamped them up and put them into the forge. The forge was at med-low orange heat and turned off, the brick I blocked the opening with was preheated. The next morning it was a done deal.

I've used a LIGHT dusting of borax when in a hurry and they stuck just fine.

I'm thinking you're doing too many things hoping for a magic bullet.

I admit only play rarely and I don't follow the Mokume guys, I ask Tristan of Jim if I have questions.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I understand the use of wire instead of a couple plates but recommend using plates bolted together to clamp the coins in.the even pressure they provide is a significant factor in making the weld. The secret is Time/temp/ pressure/ cleanliness. If you balance them all it has to work.

I don't understand the reason for heating before you clamp them together? You never want ANYTHING (including hot gasses from the forge ) to get inbetween the coins. Hot gasses from the forge will form scale and scale stops a weld dead in its tracks. If I had to guess I would think the issue was reheating that stopped the welds on some coins. gasses getting in is one reason why real, flat sheet metal is better than lumpy coins.

Also please don't use flux, it provides no significant cleaning action and is just one more thing to get in the way of two CLEAN surfaces coming together.

 

Edited by teenylittlemetalguy
Grammar
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I used the wire to hold the coins together, I haven't got around to making plates yet. I was trying to set the bond by heating and clamping in the vice before hammering. I left them in the vice untill all color was gone. The wire was pretty stiff so I could not get it as tight as I wanted. i was happy that 4 of the coind stuck on the first try. I will be going to sheet as soon as I can get some.

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I think you will enjoy using plates instead of wire. They do not have to be thick, I have used 1/16" strap before. Thicker is better for sure.

Lots of people use coins and get reasonable results. If you want to keep at it I recommend hammering or sanding them flat first, it helps minimize the black lines you see here and there that are poor welds or no welds. Ultimately you want no black lines at all and that comes from cleanliness and a tight fit so no air can get in.

good luck, would love to see pictures if you can.

 

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Very good for a first go at it!  Thanks for the picture. Looks like pretty good welds. If you chase the small pits with a grinder sometimes the just go all the way through. Just know it is a limit of the materials (coins) and move ahead making your item. Those clear themselves up mostly when you use sheet. If you plan on moving go the metal anymore it is a good idea to do it hot since nickel is involved. Typically it will tear at the weld if you don't. Also, everyone gets tears on the edges like you have there from hammering it to sheet. Experience will help minimize them before they get really big. 

 Love making jewelry for my wife out of it. Are you soaking in ammonia or just using he vapor?

 

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