Steelfinger Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I know this question gets asked a lot, but it's really starting to bug me. The first part is to why (and when) civilian swords fell out of fashion: And to the first person who says 'Guns became a thing', I'd like to point out that most countries have laws against civilians carrying firearms, and even when both were legal and available, it was considered 'socially unacceptable' to carry a firearm (at least in Britain). The second and important part is what we'd be carrying today (shout out to Micheal Kors new sword line up, and the iSword). But seriously. As far as I've landed, blade length would be around 2 feet. We left off on Smallswords, Spadroons, and the like, but is that how we'd continue? Perhaps thrusting was more cultured, and we've certainly moved away from honour codes and gentlemanly behaviours, leading to the belief that a gladius type would be more common, used moreso for slashing. I just wanted some opinion from some like minded smiths:its not exactly dinner table talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Not being a social historian I can't comment on when or why, tho as a weapon swords have always been as much about status as it was about defense. certainly in a modern context I would shoot the fool with a sword first, as it is unusual and I certainly don't want him with in 7m of me (how far an attacker can cover before you can be expected to draw, aim and fire). It's not as much about how effective I feel a sword is, as much as its just unusual and draws attention. Personally I find something the size and shape of the WWI & II bayonet to be about as large as I'm comfortable with, but I would chose (and do choose) a smaller blade. The Applegate/Fairbourn varied by the SAS (replaced the Fairbourn/Sykes) is an excellent choice as a weapon, but I tend more tord tools that serve mor than one function, so the modern bush knives based on the French trade/butcher knife ( such as Stormcrow makes) or a single edged spear point are better chooses. In fact I find the tomahawk (not the heavy "tactical" hand axes) or bag axe of a classical pattern (they were about the weight of a "spike axe" with a 18-24" handle) is an excellent choice. This gives me a tool I can use to cut bailing wire, sharpen stakes, cut small wood and defend myself, combined with a knife an excellent close quarters package. Make no mistake, one must expect to get hurt in close quarters/hand to hand combat, people don't die fast like on TV. A sufficiently aggressive stoned opponent can kill you after receiving a mortal wound. Unless you attack from ambush, a knife/sword fight is about exploiting/creating an opening one can use to disable an opponent, then delivering a coup de gra. Slashing hands, arms and legs when the fool lunges at you are pretty standard tactics. Even in handguns, "ambush" or surprise are your friend. Concealed carry is not as much about not making the "pacifists" uncomfortable as it is about preserving the slime the of surprise. If your carrying a sword or a long arm your looking for a fight, and as a "bad guy" I will nutrilize you first. As a good guy, I will take advantage of your problems and either escape or neutralize the bad guy with my easily concealed defensive tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Laws and public mores also generally find it unacceptable to carry an 18" to 48" blade built primarily for stabbing, slicing, and skewering people. That would be my guess. And they were never much worn by common civilians in a civic setting, between expense and nervous civic/political leadership. Mostly by the "elite." Use of edge vs point is a matter for another conversation, but for a "common carry" sword, I'd think you'd want something light, with a decent amount of edge, pointed. More of a long briquet or a Patton saber than a smallsword, or something that you'd need a baldric for like a big honking hand and a half. But then again, I'm more of a Lochaber axe or blunt object kinda guy. Not a cop alive worth his salt is going to let you carry a guten morgen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Actually have you tried carrying a sword? (I have). They are deucedly in the way during normal life: sitting in chairs, driving, walking in a crowd,...even in medieval times carrying a sword in general life tended to be avoided---showing up to table carrying was NOT considered appropriate in most places and times. Exceptions would be during travel, war, etc. IIRC even the Sagas have examples of folks fetching their swords in preparation for mayhem. Now wearing a sword socially started to become associated with being a gentleman and being prepared to defend your *honour*---eg "Dueling" and so became more indicative of social class. In the Napoleonic era carrying a sword socially was generally a thing for officers and their swords tended toward the ornate. However it still takes a lot of practice to waltz while wearing a sword and NOT result in unintended mayhem---even just tripping people,,, As for how late: in the USA I would investigate dueling in New Orleans with swords as that is one of the places I believe the practice lingered. (When I was taking fencing at Cornell in the mid to late 70's the sallee was decorated with old fencing weapons and armour. One day I noticed that a set of epees did NOT have buttons and talked with Jean Jacques after class. He told me that they were actually a set of dueling epees from New Orleans and from around 1900---and that I was the first person to notice in several years...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 A quote from my old tai chi teacher: "The most dangerous blade is the one you don't see." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Most places have laws against blades more than a certain length, method of opening the knife, and/or with more than one sharpened edge. In some U.S. states, you could be legally carrying a particular blade in one town, then illegally carrying that same blade when passing through the next town. As to the when and why various laws were enacted, that would likely easily slide into the forbidden area of politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Back when I was checking this out for the local SCA group in Arkansas in the late '70's I remember that you were allowed to carry a blade over a certain size if you would be going a certain number of miles outside your regular travel to help protect you from the dangers of the road; there was also a reconstruction law banning the sale or barter of swords and Bowie knives (Lile go the bowie knife part dropped), also under concealed deadly weapons the definition was so broad that my physics text book qualified as a deadly weapon and so carrying it in a backpack would be a felony...Knife/weapon laws are an incestuous crazy patchwork! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelfinger Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 On 1/5/2016 at 11:11 AM, ThomasPowers said: Now wearing a sword socially started to become associated with being a gentleman and being prepared to defend your *honour*---eg "Dueling" and so became more indicative of social class. In the Napoleonic era carrying a sword socially was generally a thing for officers and their swords tended toward the ornate. However it still takes a lot of practice to waltz while wearing a sword and NOT result in unintended mayhem---even just tripping people,,, xxxx, you're right. While I acknowledged honour codes for the type of sword, I failed to see it for swords in general. Some interesting law talk. I think it had to have fallen out of style before it was banned I.E. The governments brought these laws into place when this honour code was gone and people no longer lugged these things around. As a side note, (I've never realized the patchwork that State laws are) Canadian Law seems more clear on the matter, if still stupid to a degree. Some knives are prohibited, but only if they open with a certain mechanism (that mostly revolves around the button on the handle being illegal, but the button on the blade being fine, which is a stupid distinction as my spring assist opens one hand, and as fast as I need). Blade length is not an issue (and concealed is illegal in all circumstances), but you need to have a reason for carrying any knife or sword (and that cannot be 'fashion' or every day carry) and even then, a cop can still seize it. One story I read involved a fencing student who was stopped by a particularly rude cop. My buddy was also legally carrying his shotgun to go get it fixed, walking because he didn't have much choice. Cops spent 2 hours combing through legislation only to find out it was perfectly legal. While it may have been a stupid thing to do, cops have a responsibility to know legislation before they haul him down to the station for 2 hours while they educate themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Lawyers own law books because even with 8 years of college they don't know all the laws... you expect a law enforcement officer with a high school diploma to do better? Oklihoma knife laws aren't to bad untile you add "or other dangerous weapon or item" so don't agitate the police, lol most days they have enough on their plate with out some one adding "excitement" to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 SteelF so if you have a $5000 art knife you can't carry it in a briefcase if it's raining as it would be concealed? I've groused about a lot of the concealed weapon laws they are trying to implement as they *only* allow guns; still a felony to carry a knife---probably due to all those mass knifings in the news... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumbojak Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Guns becoming more prevalent and effective probably has a lot to do with the decline in swords being carried for personal defense. Think about it, if you have a sword and I have a matchlock pistol the odds are probably in your favor; you charge and I likely miss due to anxiety and stress without another means to stop you. The same would probably be true with a flintlock pistol. But if I happen to be carrying a revolver, even a percussion cap revolver, I have multiple chances to hit you depending on the range of the encounter. So whereas a sword - cumbersome as they were - might have made quite a bit of sense in the days of single shot firearms, they lost most of their reason for use as firearms technology improved. With comparatively little training and practice I can severely injure an attacker armed with a bladed weapon. The blade wielder will have to undergo many months, if not years of training to gain proficiency with their chosen arm. Heck, just knowing that a pistoleer can try a second, third, or more times to stop you would be a pretty intimidating prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 " ... cornel colt made man equal" ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Just now, Charles R. Stevens said: " ... cornel colt made man equal" ;-) Samuel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Something like that.... adaptive text and a 3 grade spelling level don't mix. Let's try "colonel" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelfinger Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 5 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said: Lawyers own law books because even with 8 years of college they don't know all the laws... you expect a law enforcement officer with a high school diploma to do better? Oklihoma knife laws aren't to bad untile you add "or other dangerous weapon or item" so don't agitate the police, lol most days they have enough on their plate with out some one adding "excitement" to it. A good general rule is not to agitate them. And I don't expect cops to recite laws like bible verses, but given that one of those cops was buddies firearms instructor, I'd expect him to know. I also know our federal police have a list of whats legal for firearms on their website. And that when you spend two hours reading a book, that tells me you're looking to lay a charge for statistics and wasting tax dollars. He wasn't even a threat (still a moron) but its this idea of 'this has to be illegal lets charge him anyway' that makes me ill. 4 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: SteelF so if you have a $5000 art knife you can't carry it in a briefcase if it's raining as it would be concealed? I've groused about a lot of the concealed weapon laws they are trying to implement as they *only* allow guns; still a felony to carry a knife---probably due to all those mass knifings in the news... I believe if you cover it reasonably so it's not easily accessible, or even lock the briefcase. Ultimately its a cop's decision, and it would involve searching you, acquiring an explanation. but I think the strict definition of the law says no. Whats even worse is some Dick Tracey can confiscate it, pawn it off, or add it to his collection. I thought Concealed carry was illegal in TX, but open was permitted. something about being proud of your guns... but even so, a knife is a tool and is actually less designed for self defense. My thoughts run to attempting to use your gun in place of a knife... This is definitely informative discussion, even if we moved away from swords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumbojak Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I think open carry of handguns is illegal in Texas. Long guns are legal. They might've changed it by now though, as I remember Abbott making a few headlines about it. The New Black Panthers caused quite a stir in Dallas when they marched with rifles. All twelve of them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Actually open carry in Texas is legal now, but you still have to have a permit to carry unlike other states where open carry is legal without needing a carry permit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Not only is it leagal to open carry in Arizona it is against the state constitution to register a fire arm. Lots of funky laws on the books, and that's just in the US... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice9610 Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 In Utah the law ( Guns ) is Concealed is legal with a permit, Open carry is legal for anyone who can legally own a gun. Knives are the same as open carry, as long as you could legally walk in and buy a gun, you are free to carry pretty much whatever knife you want. Switchblades, Balisongs, spring assisted, etc. All are legal here in Utah, its actually not uncommon to see people with 4-6 inch fixed blades in a belt sheath walking around walmart. Personal experience, I was 17 years old, High school student and avid martial artist. School cop comes walking up to me and some friends as we are standing next to my car in the parking lot at lunch and asks us what we are doing. I tell the officer that I am showing my friends my new toys, and then pull out 2 butterfly knives and a pair of nunchucks and a pair of sais's from the back seat of my car. School cop asks me if I know how to use them, so I show him a couple quick wrist rolls with the nunchucks and then flip one of the butterflies around for minute, the bell rings, I put the knife in my pocket, the rest back in my car, and we all walked into the building as the officer is asking me if I have ever used metal nunchucks and how much damage they do. I still to this day EDC a balisong everywhere but the office, as we have a very strict no weapons policy at work and I like being able to pay my bills, everywhere else I go though, I have it in my pocket. Never had a cop give me crap over carrying it, most of them want to know where I got it and if I can do any cool tricks with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Steelflinger: Sounds like you're making the mistake of believing a gun is more dangerous than a blade. It's a common mistake made by people backing firearm control but lacking practical knowledge. No weapon is dangerous. People are dangerous. Carrying a sword in public has always been a status issue. What you call "honor code" is just ego and hubris. Duels were rarely, very rarely fought over honorable issues. Defend your honor sirra! I wave at my genitalia in your direction! School yard ego snit fits with deadly weapons. Most were only fought to first blood and so honor is satisfied? Blustery bully BS. I'm a practical kind of guy. If you can't avoid a fight take something that takes two hands to use. Semi auto or pump shot gun for close in and something around .308 for medium long range fall in my preference range. Pistols are last resort weapons. I'd prefer my 30 years out of practice martial arts skills before something like a . . . sword? I'd take you out with the pen in my pocket before you could get a sword untangled let alone drawn and presented. Or my pocket knife though I wouldn't open it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 44 minutes ago, Malice9610 said: In Utah the law ( Guns ) is Concealed is legal with a permit, Open carry is legal for anyone who can legally own a gun. .... Personal experience, I was 17 years old, High school student and avid martial artist. School cop comes walking up to me and some friends as we are standing next to my car in the parking lot at lunch and asks us what we are doing. I tell the officer that I am showing my friends my new toys, and then pull out 2 butterfly knives and a pair of nunchucks and a pair of sais's from the back seat of my car. School cop asks me if I know how to use them, so I show him a couple quick wrist rolls with the nunchucks and then flip one of the butterflies around for minute, the bell rings, I put the knife in my pocket, the rest back in my car, and we all walked into the building as the officer is asking me if I have ever used metal nunchucks and how much damage they do. I can remember back in 1981-85 openly wearing a Buck folder in a sheath all thru Jr high and most of High school just like most of the guys (and many girls) did out in Kisap Co. Wa. A few wore smallish 4-6" fixed blade sheath knives. Today I worry if I'm going to cause issues when I'm working in the school doing repairs and have a utility knife or Leatherman. I'd hate to work in one of the public schools with the metal detectors and guards as something as simple as a pocket knife can get the whole school district locked down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I remember carrying my Case on the plane, lol. Working with horses knives are as much a safety tool as my boots, and I much prefer fixed to folding extradition tools just aren't as useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I like the what if part of this. I would think that if swords stayed in fashion a short slashing blade would evolve. Easy to carry in cars and around busy towns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I remember carrying swords on a plane! And my SAK has been pretty much around the world; never had any issues with it till fairly recently and so now it gets packed and if I'm only carrying a carry on it gets left behind... Otto you mean the machete? Or the bush swords that Stormcrow makes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 One nice thing about travelling as much as I do for business is that I get to check a bag for free, up to 70 lbs. The TSA is frequently puzzled by why I should be taking home so many bits of scavenged scrap metal.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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