stan

What kind of steel are these chisels?

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Picked up these chisels they look like some kind of alloy ,wondered if anyone knew what type of steel they might be or what they are used for. Cheers.

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IMG_1045.JPG

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The bottom two look sort of like the tools used to caulk or chink wooden boat seams with oakum.

 

chisels.jpg.1584614a911499b567f6aac3ee19

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2 minutes ago, DSW said:

The bottom two look sort of like the tools used to caulk or chink wooden boat seams with oakum.

Hi Dsw they look like they are meant to be hit with a wooden malate ,boat making tools yeah.

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10 hours ago, stan said:

Hi Dsw they look like they are meant to be hit with a wooden malate ,boat making tools yeah.

They are struck with a caulking mallet.  The mallet gives off a certain sound which is used to make sure the caulking is driven in uniformly.  Do a google image search on caulking mallets to see what they look like.

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Thanks all, for the for the information, I will look into it more, nice looking mallets.. Not sure what you mean Steve.

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I see , thanks BGD, the reason I said it  though was because they look a very unique make up that I have not seen before, obviously a high grade tool steel.

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What was the alloy or designation of the steel, and just how did you confirm they were made from tool steel ?

 

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The one I am talking about is the one made in Sheffield it is magnetic and  is hardened at the work end ,maybe it has some sort of coating which gives it the look and no sign of corrosion even though its quite old. Compare to the ones in your photo Glen.

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Made in Sheffield it is magnetic and  is hardened at the work end ,maybe it has some sort of coating

Still does not make it tool steel.

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Doing a bit of research on the the malley, I found the following information on end grain crush strength.

This is hardly definitive at this stage of research, but I've come to believe that makes a Drew a Drew are the heavier mesquites, woods with a rare combination of high Specific Gravity (weight) and relatively low resistance to end grain crushing (Compression parallel to the grain). Heavy and hard wood produces a mallet that rings loud and hits with authority. Low crushing strength produces a mallet that eventually wears out, but is easy on the wrist and elbow over the long haul. Live Oak exhibits identical characteristics to mesquite although a bit lighter and less stable seasonally, making it Drew's second or economy choice because it's also more available than the heavier mesquite species and less expensive.

I mentioned that Ipe, Ebony and other hard, heavy tropicals have been used for mallets but users report they are hard on wrists and elbows. I think that's because while these woods equal or exceed mesquite in hardness and weight, they have very high crushing strengths with less "give" or cushioning effect in use. Examples of what I've collected are summarized in the table below:

Species / SG / End Grain Crush Strength

Q. virginiana (Live Oak) / .88 / 8900lbs

P. juliflora (Black Mesquite) / .94 / 9000lbs

P. nigra (Black Mesquite) / .85 / 8700lbs

P. grandulosa (Common Mesquite) / .81 / unk

O.radiaei (Greenheart) / .80 / 12,510lbs

A. grareoleus (Goncalo Aves) / .84 / 10,320lbs

M. hidentata (Bulletwood) / .85 / 11,400lbs

Tabebria sp. (Ipe) / .92 / 13,010lbs

All these mesquite species exhibit the same characteristics so far....so for an accurate Drew replica species may not be important providing the weight of the stock exceeds the range of Live Oak by a considerable margin. If I were looking for an Australian substitute, I'd be looking for a species with a combination of high SG with low Compression Parallel to Grain.

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Why is it that when I make a comment about someone making wild claims, I get called snarky, or rude? I didnt notice BGD making any useful comments`about the ability to ID metal components from touch, taste or a photo, but if he really thinks its a valid way I want to see proof of how that works because I would love to avoid paying the high cost of analysis to find out what alloys a scrap bar is. 

 

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Besides making mallets, mesquite is one of the best BBQ woods you can use.  Great flavor!

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Steve If you weren`t being rude what were you being , I have never herd of that term but sounds like you calling someone an idiot. But hey I have a thick skin as well as a thickhead so it dose not worry me, what does is the way you attacked BGD was what he said really that bad . Next time I have a question I feel like just googling it rather than unsetting an expert with some wild claim .Someone  need a sense of humor.

Stan

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I guess I should have included, you can't tell what alloy of steel it is by looking at it.....instead of just --all steels will be an alloy. They are marked with a manufacturer stamp, and some manufacturers listed the alloy they used in their marketing, so that may help out. Now that you know what they were used for, what are they worth to someone who still uses them? Maybe sell them, and buy some known steel with the proceeds.

Steve, I have no desire to be "noticed" on the forums. If you think differently you can shoot me a message explaining why you think I do, I'd like to hear what you have to say, I am open to constructive criticism. There are a lot of posts that I do not comment on because my views were already stated by someone else quite appropriately, and I am not interested in just upping my post count.  In this case I simply addressed Stan's question about your comment referring to his comment of , it looks like an alloy, when all steels are an alloy of some kind. Then again I could have let you do that yourself, I'll give you that. But I remembered from another post of yours that you were putting in a 12 pulling "some kind" of wire.....so I figured you might be too busy/tired to answer Stan.

Stan, this is just an internet forum on blacksmithing. Nothing posted on here , or anywhere else on the web, will get under my skin. Besides , this is mild compared to my friend's political postings :D  

 

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One thing to remember is that Manufacturers are not usually trying to use the *best* alloy for a purpose; but the *cheapest* that will work.  Now a few will upgrade a bit and use it as a marketing point, (like the old black diamond files at 1.2% carbon); but most will not.

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looking back I think I am partly to blame for this thread getting off track because my original question wasn`t clear, I wasn`t wanting a scientific make up of the steel just from a photo but more about if someone own, used ,forged with something similar and if anyone new what gave the tool its look eg was it some sort of plating 

 

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We have diverse backgrounds, ... and that varied "experience" influences how we think, ... and express ideas.

I have an Engineering background, ... and fully understand that when communicating with a Tool & Die Maker, about HIS area of expertise, you need to be quite specific about materials.

But when discussing the same issue with an Accountant, that same level of specificity just gets in the way.

To the Accountant, ... if it's a Tool, ... made from Steel, ... then "Tool Steel" seems like a perfectly appropriate term, ... to him.

 

To the Tool & Die Maker, drawing any conclusions about the material, based on it's appearance, is unacceptably imprecise.

 

But someone with experience in "re-purposing" scrap metal, can tell at-a-glance ( from the texture and patina ) the difference between a rusted piece of Mild Steel, ... and something with a higher level of Carbon.

 

So, ... depending on your perspective, the same question can be either "reasonable", ... or "ridiculous".

 

.

 

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On 1/3/2016 at 4:33 AM, stan said:

Picked up these chisels they look like some kind of alloy ,wondered if anyone knew what type of steel they might be or what they are used for. Cheers.

IMG_1044.JPG

IMG_1045.JPG

The top one is what I know as a "cow mouth" or round nose chisel, used for cutting grooves for oilways or similar applications,

The "metallugical graticules on my eyeballs" indicate that the material used was EN9, another give away is the octagonal section of the bar stock, this was the international convention for tool steel for many years so that it could be identified by eye when in stock, it also helped by the fact a company I served part of my apprevnticeship manufactured these. 

Tyzacks can be  traced back to early 1700's, and made their own crucible steel, so exacly what that was is open to question, with marks etc the one you have there will be pre second world war as the company amalgamated with Isaac Nash of Stourbridge and name changed in 1942 to form Nash Tyzack Industries.

Joseph Tyzack built a connection with the Isle-of-Man Steam Packet Boat Company. The three legged mark, which was required by this customer, was later adopted and registered with the Cutlers’ Company in 1847. The son Thomas was born in 1842 and become the Son in Tyzack and Son, hence the makers stamp with its three legs.

1885 was the time when falling home sales sent them overseas. Members of the family travelled to France, Germany, Russia, Australia, and other Commonwealth countries. About this time their product range was defined by one reference as “various types of single and double shear, blister, and other steels, all kinds of knives for reaping and mowing machines knives for chaff and turnip cutters, knives for paper mills and tobacco works, all sorts of irons for planing, tonguing and carving for woodworking machinery, saws, scythes, forks, files, and other similar goods. ..... Demands have come in, chiefly from New Zealand and Australia, for heavy parts of agricultural and other implements such as plough and share plates of various patterns, plough mould boards plough circular coulters, and skeith plates, harrow discs stripper teeth, cultivator knives, &c. The machine for which the stripper teeth and other parts are supplied is being made in large numbers in these Colonies.

Tyzacks had from their earliest operations made their own steel by casting from crucibles using a process similar to Huntsman. These special high-speed steels were marked by the trade name “Nonpareil”. It was an early mark of quality and a constant standard was maintained. Emphasis on quality by means of a works laboratory employing analytical chemists was then an innovation and it enabled processes like tempering to be fully controlled.

Hopefully this may help to answer your initial question, well at least for one of them.

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/26151-what-are-these-chisels-used-for/ may also be useful

 

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Wise words SmoothBore, I guess asking a question can require as much thought as giving the correct answer.

 

John B, thank you very much for taking the time to provide extensive information on what I think is a very interesting subject. I can now see the name T J.TYZACK&SONS with now makes sense and points me in the right direction to follow it up.

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On 03/01/2016 at 4:33 AM, stan said:

Picked up these chisels they look like some kind of alloy ,wondered if anyone knew what type of steel they might be or what they are used for. Cheers.

IMG_1044.JPG

IMG_1045.JPG

Sheffield steel is as I sure you may know world renowned and with most brands, they will use their own secret recipe. They look old, stained with oil, rusted and brought back to a proper finish, 'tools that should last' in other words, good find.

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Sheffield was famous for using cast steel  for certain items long after other places had moved to differing technologies; however those are not stamped "cast steel" and so are probably not.

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