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Larry,

Once again I would like to invite you to take the conversation to a permanent thread; in this case Forges 101. I listed you in the Sources section of my book all those years ago, because where to to buy needed parts are just as important to people as any other how-to information. Not using the forum as a platform to advertise, doesn't extend to the point of pretending you don't exist. Why not follow Wayne's example, and thread a careful path? :)

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Thanks, I read the MSDSs, Data sheets, etc. on SuperWool, Cerablanket and ended up reading about a bunch more.

Like Mike says I don't see a lot of difference in performance. Armoring it with a castable refractory is still the only way to keep a blanket refractory in tact for any length of time. Well, a blanket refractory a normal guy can afford that is.

So, why did you change product and what are the complaints you're hearing?

Frosty The Lucky.

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I totally agree on the armoring; especially now that we have such a slick armor available (zirconium silicate & Veegum). But this only drives my desire to increase the performance of the insulation layer; greedy Mikey once it all, but will always accept more for now, and keep on looking for still more performance later :)

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You're referring to kiln wash yes? You tend to use flame face interchangeably for the hard refractory and kiln wash so you lose me sometimes. The name implies the material in contact with the flame, whatever the material. 

I'm just never sure about Mike. :rolleyes:

Frosty The Lucky.

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I made a small test tile with about 5% Bentone (refined bentonite alternative to Veegum) and 95% Zirconium silicate (3cm x 3cm x 0.5 cm). After drying out the water I put it in the forge at a high yellow for about 20 minutes and let cool with the forge. Cold it is very hard to break or even scratch. I have yet to  use it as an actual liner but I imaging it will sinter in a similar way. I'll keep you guys posted.

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4 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

We are both talking about the zirconium silicate/Veegum mixture, yes?

I wouldn't bet on anything else to match up against Kast-O-lite 30 for toughness in the cold state.

Sort of, I was wondering how you were using the term "Flame Face." I know I sound pendantic at times but a TBI coping mechanism that works for me is to try and have established and specific meanings and uses for some things. I can adapt if you use flame face interchangeably for either the hard refractory or kiln wash but I'll be asking for clarification if it's important to the conversation. 

Maarten: That sounds very promising, 5% Bentonite, 95% zirconium silicate! Did you actually break it or is it tough enough to call it very hard to break? In my limited experience bentonite has a high tolerance for thermal shock. I'm thinking ITC-100 is getting blown out of the furnace! How long did it take to dry? 

Thank you Maarten, that's terrific info. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty, It took for ever to dry, first test tile I tried to force dry but that made it crack. I think temperature was to high though. I expect less cracking when force drying at temperatures below boiling point of water. I get impatient and rush sometimes. I did manage to break a piece off the tile but it took quite some force. From what I know about sintering I may need to soak the next tile a bit longer for a more complete bond.

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MonkeyForge,

Feel free to add anything you care to on the subject of sintering.

Please note that the author of the article in DigitalFire on making rirconium silicate refractories, talked about using batts to help dry his tile, and warned that the amount of water had to be kept to a minimum. Myfordboy has a video on YouTube, showing how he uses a hand operated vibrator to liquefy castable refractory, which contains very little water content, into a mold. I think vibration will be key to success in molding or casting these formulas.

9 hours ago, Frosty said:

Sort of, I was wondering how you were using the term "Flame Face." I know I sound pendantic at times but a TBI coping mechanism that works for me is to try and have established and specific meanings and uses for some things. I can adapt if you use flame face interchangeably for either the hard refractory or kiln wash but I'll be asking for clarification if it's important to the conversation. 

Good point; I will be more specific in future.This stuff can be used as both a thin heat reflective coating at 5% Veegum (or Bentonite clay) and as a 3/16" and thicker refractory at 3.5%; the difference being that the author stated that it becomes "sticky" with the higher percentage of plasticizer/binder. Sticky is a very desirable quality in a thin coating, but a real pain in a general refractory.

Home founders like to build vibrating plates for sand screens to set on; the same scheme should be a simple method for vibrating small molds for casting tile, etc.

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To All,

The reason that I changed from Cerablanket to the Superwool HT is because the Superwool carries no health warning unlike the regular ceramic blankets.  I work with these products daily and I also want to provide my customers the safest product possible.

I was told that when the first Superwool was introduce to the market the temperature rating was 1800 degrees and now they have it up to 2372 degrees so I am sure that they will have higher temperature ratings in the future.

 

Larry Zoeller

www.zoellerforge.com

 

 

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Maarten: Do you know how much water you used? Bentonite is some weird stuff to work with, it LOVES water. Taking forever to dry is about right if you can get it to dry at all. It's used to plug the tap on iron melters, mixed almost sloppy wet and shoved in as a big glob. Going straight from well past it's liquid limit (I'll get to that in a sentence or two) to 2,800f or hotter doesn't cause checking or the iron would leak from the tap. 

However you're using it to cement aggregate so it obviously behaves differently.

Mike if soils will liquify under vibratory conditions of loads it's water content is past it's liquid limit. In the lab pure ceramics or pottery clays are "soils", they all behave the same way. Drying clays liquid limit wet takes forever without a drier. Commercial operations use a ball mill and BIG blow driers.

For this application I'd wet the zirconium, let it drain and mix it with the bentonite to coat the outside of the zirconium particles with clay. Think of it like breading fish rather than battering it. 

The Veegum is a different thing all together, the article as far as I read was talking about 0.25% - 0.35%. and 0.5% becoming obnoxiously sticky and hard to dry. I'm thinking mixing a 0.5% solution in water and using a spritzer bottle on straight zirconium silicate powder while in a rotary mixer. When it starts to clump ram it in molds. A kiln wash might be spritzing the inside of the forge and dusting it with zirconium silicate powder till no more sticks.

I would've replied sooner but I'm in skyball mode, need to think things through and went back to bentonite in the lab memories. There were some beuts about people trying to mix bentonite. Ever see a cement mixer stalled out belt burning on the motor pully? Funny failures.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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Thixotropic; a word I learned in mudlogging class; but not had much use for since I left the oilpatch. Bentonites ability to "gel" is what keeps all the cuttings in the mud when the pump stops to make or break a joint [of drilling pipe]. Otherwise all the crud in suspension would drop down and jam the bit leading to much unpleasantness and junk baskets ( I still have some steel "gravel" from a downhole issue...)

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My experiment for tonight is as follows:

  • 100gr of zirconium silicate
  • 5 grams of bentone
  • 50 millilitres of water

Above will yield a thick very sticky paste. (sticky to hands cardboard and plastic. I should have a clean room with super dry surfaces)

  • add another 50 millilitres of water and get sour cream consistency (maybe a bit runny)
  • add 100gr of zirconium silicate and have a paste again (somewhat grainy)
  • add another  5 grams of bentone and get back to the sticky paste we had before.

Above is what I did for the test tiles in my previous answer. Gelling as Thomas says is what happens to the mixture when it gets sticky, this is why ratios of water make so much of a difference. Adding more water can get the mixture more cooperative but it will need more active mixing. ( I tumble-mixed dry powder and added water)

on another note, should we move this discussion elsewhere? Forges 101 or in alchemy?

 

 

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Do you see something I don't in the MSDS Larry? They all read about the same except the refractory blankets that dissolve in water. The warnings are about heavy or prolonged exposure causing irritation. Once it's vitrified the particles can be hard and sharp but till then they aren't considered much of a hazard. Not even the Mesothelioma folk mention it.

Still, it's better to be too careful within reason. SuperWool HT reads close enough to other major brands it's a fine choice.

Frosty The Lucky.

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23 hours ago, Frosty said:

Do you see something I don't in the MSDS Larry? They all read about the same except the refractory blankets that dissolve in water. The warnings are about heavy or prolonged exposure causing irritation. Once it's vitrified the particles can be hard and sharp but till then they aren't considered much of a hazard. Not even the Mesothelioma folk mention it.

Still, it's better to be too careful within reason. SuperWool HT reads close enough to other major brands it's a fine choice.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Frosty,

The following were taken from Thermal Ceramics web site

 

Cerablanket  CHRONIC RESPIRATORY HEALTH EFFECTS Refractory ceramic fibres have been classified by the E.U. as a category 2 carcinogen (“substances which should be regarded as if they are carcinogenic to man”).

 

The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) reaffirmed that group 2B (“possibly carcinogenic to humans”) remains the appropriate classification for RCF.

 

 

Quote

Superwool

Quote

Key health properties The key health property of all Superwool®products, including the latest member of the family, is that any fibres that might be breathed in and reach the lungs are rapidly removed. This characteristic is referred to as low bio-persistence. As a consequence fibres do not accumulate in the lung, preventing the occurrence of any significant inflammatory effect that might affect the lungs. Low bio-persistence is achieved by producing the fibres that are a glassy material, which partially corrodes and then fragments when it comes into contact with the fluids found in the lungs.

 

Larry Zoeller

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Larry,

I find myself underwhelmed...and that is just WRONG! It is important to get behind products that are investing in their customers safety. Recently, I even thought about looking for a source of asbestos, just to solve some technical problems; Maybe it's because I'm old. But there are a lot of young people, who still need to guard their health. Bravo, for doing something constructive about the future

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Good reason Larry. I didn't see much difference in hazards looking at the MSDS sheets but didn't really read at the E.U. sheets in any depth. The quick scans read about the same for the major brands. 

My reading was superficial and I tend to be a little skeptical of company claims and look for independent agency reports. I'll go with your reasoning, better to be safer than necessary.

Frosty The Lucky.

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On 7/31/2017 at 2:30 PM, MonkeyForge said:

Above is what I did for the test tiles in my previous answer. Gelling as Thomas says is what happens to the mixture when it gets sticky, this is why ratios of water make so much of a difference. Adding more water can get the mixture more cooperative but it will need more active mixing. ( I tumble-mixed dry powder and added water)

on another note, should we move this discussion elsewhere? Forges 101 or in alchemy?

I often move my comments in other threads, to Forges 101, and change the text enough to keep the subject clear for readers there. I would like to see what you had to say here, in that more permanent thread; the subject is as important as any other in that tjread.

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So, I got my gas refilled and the weather was cooperative. I made another test tile 6 x 6 x 0.5 cm. took about 3 days to be dry enough to put in the Kitchen oven to drive out the last water. (140 degrees C for 30 minutes) unfortunately I got clumsy and broke the tile. (it survived the oven without cracking) I was left with a couple of fragments approximately 2 x 2 x 0.5 cm. This means shrinkage is minimal. I fired these fragments in my forge. Forge is up to 1000 degrees C within 3 to 4 minutes and climbs to 1300/1350 C within 15. Soaked the tiles for 30 minutes at peak temp. (Yellow) Let cool with the forge, another hour before i can handle them. The end result can be shattered with a hammer but I cannot break the pieces with my hands. Scratching with metal is possible but takes some deliberate force. 

Next I tested for thermal shock resistance by heating up the individual pieces to red hot and quenching in water they did not crack. After quenching breaking strength remained the same. 

I soaked one of the samples in a glass of water over night, in the morning it was untouched.

Mixture for this test:

  • 96 grams of Zirconium silicate
  • 4 grams of Bentone (Al203.4SiO2.9H2O)
  • Water (did not measure but added until I got a clay like consistency.

I pressed above mixture into a cardboard mould, let dry over night and removed from mold for air drying. I may try plaster mold at some point and longer soaking tempratures in the forge to compare toughness. Al in all results are promising. I am contemplating that 0. 5 cm coating directly over rigidised ceramic wool would resist poking quite well. As long I can make a homogeneous enough and apply it evenly.    

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