Forging Carver Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Hi, . So I want to make one of those soup can/coffee can forges that run of a propane torch. I do use coal which is absolutely fine, but it creates a lot of smoke and gets me very dirty which I do not mind. However, on weekdays I do not forge with coal becuase I need to setup the forge and I get very dirty. Right now there is only about 2 hours worth of daylight from when I get home from school. So I figured that if I make a soup can forge, I can forge some carving knives so I can keep up with business when I start selling them, and also bottle openers. My only fear is that I am unsure if the forge is big enough for a bottle opener specifically made from a railroad spike. The railroad spike will probobly fit, but I do not know if it will fit or will be too big once I start working the drift on the horn. Any of you guys out there who have a soup can forge or used to or know if they are large enough for a spike opener, please let me know. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 You can make Bowey knives and larger in a bean can forge. You just can't get too squirrely with bends, scrolls, etc. Maybe you can get Mike to show you how to build one of his 3/8" Pocket Rocket burners. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Actually, a bean can forge would use a 1/4" burner. A 3/8" burner would only work even in a coffee can forge by turning it down most of the way. There is something to be said for using some kinds of jewelry torches in miniature forges, but you must be careful to keep them from overheating. Forging Carver, If you want to get hold of a two gallon size helium cylinder or non-refillable refrigerant cylinder and build a proper knife forge, I will post instructions on this forum for building my latest (generation six) high speed tube burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 Sure I guess post it becuase eventually it will come in good help. Right now I just wanted a small one so that I can forge real quickly after school for a couple, but I am interested in going all gas eventually. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 Alright so the thing is made but I used a kitchen oil spray container as a form for the center. Only issue is that the mix hardened and now I can't get it out. Is mayo not option to melt the can out? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Let it scale away from use! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 Will it melt though becuase it is so thin? If I do that, I will have to cut the top off it and then drill a hole for the torch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 What mix did you use to insulate the inside of your soup can? Unless high temperature castable insulation of some sort be careful what you mount the forge on and how close you set your burner to the forge port. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 alright it is finished!!! I am so thrilled I got the thing out. It is made from a 2 pound soup can and the insulator is one part plaster of paris, one part sand, and enough water to five it a clay like consistancy. The area where the propane will enter is a 1/2in pipe nipple. There are two holes that may have been from me trying to pry the container out, so is it fine how it is, or should I make a small batch of the mix and patch it up? Lastly, is the entrance for the propane too far back? It is literally at the back of the forge. I think this will work how I want it pretty good! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 CURMUDGEONLY RANT ON! (You have been warned!) IMNSHO you should break it out and rebuild it with a real, insulative refractory and not waste money on gas using plaster of paris and sand! Whoever posted that recipe on the net should have been horsewhipped. (People keep telling me that they couldn't afford to buy kaowool and so used plaster of paris and sand or in other words "I couldn't afford to spend $20 so I'm going to spend $100 extra in fuel instead and so save money!) Everybody I know who has actually tried to use the PoP&S has found that it doesn't work worth a hood---you loose too much heat and plaster of paris doesn't last at forge temperatures it converts back to its original form. (in fact a campfire will do it, as shown out here at White Sands) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 Ah darn I wish I would have known. Every video on the soup can forge used this pasted and Paris and sand mix. Oh well, you live and you learn. At least I know for next time. So what exact stuff should I use instead? They are fairly simple to make anyways. I made mine through a video by a guy named nighthawknlight on YouTube. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jBVa2bw3r_k it wasn't until after I finished the forge when I found this. http://www.zoellerforge.com/coffee.html. Should I follow this instead? Sorry if this was answered, but I could not find the answer. Sorry if this was a little choppy and didn't make sense but something is going on and I am kind of worried about my brother. Thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Russell Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Yet more proof that people " don't " use the search feature in forums , all this info can easily be found in forums , but guess Good Old " YouTube " knows better ....... Tell you the truth I really dont " care ' anymore . Dale Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 Dale I'm not trying to be mean to you or anything but I did use the search feature and didn't find anything if you would have read the comment carefully. Also, twi weeks ago you said you don't care anymore and haven't talked to me since, so why are you telling me that again now? When you search soup can forge, tons of stuff comes up but nothing about what I am looking for. Also, even if I did find a post on how to make one, I learn better by watching someone instead of following a set of directions. I wouldn't be posting this if I could find the answer in the search feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickOHH Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 33 minutes ago, Forging Carver said: Dale I'm not trying to be mean to you or anything but I did use the search feature and didn't find anything if you would have read the comment carefully. Also, twi weeks ago you said you don't care anymore and haven't talked to me since, so why are you telling me that again now? When you search soup can forge, tons of stuff comes up but nothing about what I am looking for. Also, even if I did find a post on how to make one, I learn better by watching someone instead of following a set of directions. I wouldn't be posting this if I could find the answer in the search feature. It's not specifically about soup can forges but there has been posts recently that covered the plaster/ sand home brews and using castable or ceramic blankets. Searching can be tricky if you get specific, just gotta start skimmin posts in the right category. Good luck with your gas unit though I have been procrastinating with building my freon tank forge with other projects. 21 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Actually, a bean can forge would use a 1/4" burner. A 3/8" burner would only work even in a coffee can forge by turning it down most of the way. There is something to be said for using some kinds of jewelry torches in miniature forges, but you must be careful to keep them from overheating. Forging Carver, If you want to get hold of a two gallon size helium cylinder or non-refillable refrigerant cylinder and build a proper knife forge, I will post instructions on this forum for building my latest (generation six) high speed tube burner. IDE be interested In seeing this, getting around to building a burner soon ( hopefully soon lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Okay all, I will post my book notes on the 3/8" burner, which can be used in a Coffee-can size furnace by turning it down most of the way, and is quite capable of heating a properly built Freon cylinder forge, to yellow-white heat. This chapter is text only; there are no drawings or photos in it yet, but those of us who are involved in building these burners can post photos, and relate our experiences as we go. And, of course, you all can corner the author and insist on further explanations as we go. Lets keep it all on this thread for now, and when we are finished with the subject, it can be given its own thread; maybe along with better instructions on constructing miniature forges. Forging Carver, It would be silly to break apart your forge's filler at this point; better to build your burner and use it to test out whether or not the burner port is too close, instead. Also your port pipe isn't placed at the right angle to get good swirl, which means the combusted gases will exit the forge faster; that can cost you as much fuel as poor insulation This also gives you something to use while you collect the materials to insulate the forge with the correct way, next try. This is also your opportunity to place a high alumina kiln shelf in front of the forge opening at a variable distance, and use it as a baffle plate. You've already paid in labor to put that insulation in it, so put it to some good use as a test bed, before breaking it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 The problem with the net is that there is such a low cost to publish on it. So folks who know nothing about smithing---but are net savvy can post great looking terrible information---Like look at all the folks posting constructed anvil stands where they stack the wood horizontally instead of vertically---few post "this is not nearly as good a method as putting there vertically, but it will work to some degree" on their creations. (Or the famous youtube one where the poster says "I have never done this before but this is how you should do it!" Now if you were looking for info would you rather go with someone with decades of experience and a wide reputation in the field; or someone who has never done it before...?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 While there are good things to see on Youtube it's NOT the place for a beginner to break into any craft. Anyone with a camera and a connection can "publish" what they've done. Searching the web has become harder over the years with advertisers "suggesting" things you MIGHT be interested in, the folk who make our browser software get paid by advertisers to subvert our efforts at finding what we actually need. For example I just searched "insulating refractory" and got several pages of hits most of which were companies selling insulation, services insulating houses, walk in refrigerators, fish packing facilities, etc. I was pleasantly surprised to see half a dozen at least mention refractories on the first page and a few makers I recognized. Search youtube for bean can forge and what you get are pages and pages of folk trying to figure out how to make one and posting what they did as if it were a success. I didn't do more than read titles so in all honesty I don't know if any of these intrepid "inventors" posted what happened IF they got a PoP&S forge liner even close to forging temperature. They almost undoubtedly couldn't build a burner that'd do it anyway. Not only is it a fail as an efficient liner it wont take the heat you'll be lucky if it doesn't fail explosively and only spalls unpleasantly. Don't wear open top shoes or boots, you won't enjoy the HOT chips and flakes in your shoes. If a person insists on making their own refractory, castable or rammable research it and ignore Youtube, Wiki, etc. try the library. There are GOOD books out there with specific formula and methods to make proper high temp refractory liners for furnaces, kilns and forges. One of my first attempts before I discovered I could buy high end refractory just a few miles from home was what I learned from a potter. Fire clay, grog and sawdust. Dampen the sawdust and mix it with the clay, sand mixture till it's reasonably evenly mixed, seal in an airtight container over night and test in the morning. If it clumps in your hand and breaks cleanly it's tempered and ready to ram in forms. The saw dust burns out during firing and you're left with a brick full of air voids. The practical problem is firing the things. Light insulating fire brick costs around 2x as much as hard brick because it takes a LOT longer to fire and it takes a number of hours at temp to vitrify it at all. And NO your propane forge isn't going to do it unless you want to keep it burning over night and SLOWLY turn it down and let it cool. So much for saving anything by making it rather than buying it. My parents called that kind of thinking, "Penny wise dollar foolish." I don't know how many pages there are on Iforge about building and lining propane forges, I'd be surprised if there weren't a sub section dedicated to bean can forges themselves. Think of searching Iforge? You k now the largest most active blacksmithing site on the internet? The one with an entire section about gas forges? Judge Milian of People's Court fame often relates an old Cuban sayings, "The easy comes out hard," and "The cheap comes out expensive." Truer words were never spoken. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutant Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Well, I say you did a great job. Use it and have fun. I'm sure it has benefits and short comings. No biggie, it's not going to be the last furnace you ever build. Make, learn improve! Keep us informed, I live for this kind of stuff. -m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 1 minute ago, mutant said: Well, I say you did a great job. Use it and have fun. I'm sure it has benefits and short comings. No biggie, it's not going to be the last furnace you ever build. Make, learn improve! Keep us informed, I live for this kind of stuff. -m You're trying to make our point about just anyone saying whatever they want regardless of knowledge or experience for us? Let me summarize for you. That liner is not only inefficient it's DANGEROUS. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutant Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Yes I know - that's the learning part and not being the last furnace he builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 The real part of this section of the learning curve is figuring out who to ignore. There is NOTHING "great job" about that forge. Your comment is part of the problem and you're rationalizing now. <Ph> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 How many people give up on forging because their "starting point" is so bad that forging is a pain rather than a pleasure? Using a forge that can't get your workpiece up to a proper forging temp (and people not realizing what a proper forging temp is!) is no help to a new person. Why I strongly suggest new people spend a Saturday with someone experienced so they can see what it's supposed to look like and how it's supposed to work. (and why I don't charge for new folks who come by my forge---I started with "The Modern Blacksmith" in on hand and the tongs in the other and it was tough!) While I love to eat Bing cherries; I dislike that so many people read "cherry red" and don't realize that till recently cherries were an orange-yellow color not a black/red color...that's the sort of thing new peolple need to know if they are going to try to go it alone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 Thank you guys so much. I am glad you told me there is nothing good about this forge. I rather you guys be truthful than just pretend. You are right, YouTube is not a good source to learn on. For now I suppose I am sticking with coal until I get to make another gas forge. Thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Look through the yellow pages and call a local HVAC company. Modern boilers and furnaces commonly use ceramic blanket, various types of fire brick and kiln washes. If the one you call (on the phone) doesn't carry or sell what you're looking for they will know who does. The outfit we get most of our refractories from is in Anchorage and gives the Association a great discount and it's actually hard to get away without them loading you up with rems from furnace jobs. Legally they can't use rems on a client's job so it's trash. Most furnace guys LIKE fire and are willing to talk fire just be polite and don't waste too much of their time. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 Alright thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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