Sign in to follow this  
Truhaven

Gas fired forge temp issues

Recommended Posts

Hey there guys, long time lurker but I have a question that I am hoping someone can help me with.

 

i am trying to learn to forge weld and am having tons of difficulty. I think i have come to the conclusion that it infact is my forge not getting hot enough. Here is my set up.

cofee can forge fired with a 3/4 inch reil style butner. Orafice is drilled to 1/16th (smallest i could find), ran at 5-10psi. Burner is then helped with ~25psi of air from the back to aid in compustion. 

I get good heat for forging and shaping but not near enough to weld. Looking at ways to increase the heat output. Im using straight propane not mapp.

 

the borax does melt when its put on something that clmes directly from the forge.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im not sure about how your burner is set up but to be able to maintain 25 psi pressure through a 3/4 burner you must have one heck of an air compressor! 

Assuming with a oriface of .0625 ot 1/16 and being a blown style burner In a coffee can with a minimum of 1" of insulation it should be plenty hot. I think you have some tuning issues. Some pictures of your setup and while it is running will help with a diagnosis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance.

You MUST follow the directions to make a naturally aspirated burner work. Don't bother asking Ron why yours won't work, he stopped replying at all he was so tired of people asking questions without reading his directions and FAQs. He's posted detailed, dimensioned drawings decades ago. If you can't make a burner work following those, nothing we can tell you will help.

I'll point out one basic mistake you made. Good GRIEF buy the right size drill bit! If you can't afford one lousy drill bit you can't afford to practice the craft.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And a tip when I had a NG device converted to propane, the propane service just hard soldered the orifice closed and re drilled it with the proper smaller bit---easier to drill hard solder than steel when you get that small!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good one, Thomas,

And people without lathes could put together some kind of drilling fixture, so this method could be used smaller tholes in MIG tips.

Hey Frosty; Got any tips for the rest of us on this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What kind of orifice? I laid out a reasonably easy and accurate method of drilling, tapping the T and brass fitting for a T burner and posted it here.

I'm not that fond of fixing the supply pipe across the intake and drilling the jet orifice in it but it's easy enough to do. buy or make a V block, center it under the bit, center punch LIGHTLY, clamp and drill.

If you're drilling a fitting you've soldered closed the easy way is to chuck the fitting in the drill press and clamp the drill bit in the vise. Simply turn the drill on and flatten the end of the fitting with a draw file. The score marks will  mark the center as perfectly as a boy could want. With the drill bit clamped vertical center it on the fitting and drill it out.

Chasing a mig contact tip is even easier. insert the drill bit that matches the orifice in the mig tip and chuck them in the drill press then gently clamp them in the vise. Check the alignment by by gently advancing and retracting the feed. When it moves easily and you can remove the bit and reinsert it cleanly remove the bit from the drill press and solder up the mig tip. When cool it's ready to drill to spec.

It's much easier to get a drill bit plumb to the drill quill than the fitting. So long as you don't expect a drill press's bearings to take any side loading it'll work fine as a lathe.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited by Frosty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys, Thanks for all the replies. here are some pics of the forge set up 

Forge ChamberIMG_1908.thumb.JPG.970629f697221f64cb4e0

Burner: 1/4" cross pipe drilled to 1/16, swedged to 3/4 inch, 1 inch x 1 1/4 bell reducerIMG_1910.thumb.JPG.8b6550a6960beb94598dc

Burner at 5PSI

IMG_1911.thumb.JPG.d5375dbffcbfc1f02fddc

In forge at 5psiIMG_1915.thumb.JPG.659ead39b386a0f7e85c4

IMG_1916.thumb.JPG.cebc0059802660c31595c

In forge at 15psi no added airIMG_1917.thumb.JPG.af71627d7797fce1c559fIMG_1918.thumb.JPG.767fce739af762994d614

air hose to blow into burner

IMG_1923.thumb.JPG.cb1fe5f1e9d2627643036IMG_1924.thumb.JPG.4f61304576d5205141d44

In forge with air at 5psi propane (NOTICEABLY HOTTER..by A LOT)IMG_1919.thumb.JPG.bf7ae56f92b428354ffd7IMG_1920.thumb.JPG.56382ca600b424a9e15df

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you downloaded Ron Reil's burner directions? Part of the problem is the over sized supply pipe, it's blocking a LOT of the intake air it needs to burn clean. 1/8" pipe is more than enough supply for a 3/4" burner and will block about 1/4  as much as the one you're using now. Once you unblock it the air will flow easier and will supply much more air than the increase might seem.

Buy the right size drill bit for goodness sake! You'll save enough in propane to pay for it before you empty the first tank.

Now download the plans and follow them. Ron spent years developing a burner that works IF you build it to his plans. There is NO intelligent reason to try figuring it out. A smart person learns from another person's work.

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At no point was I trying to figure it out other options, just unfortunatly limited in what is available. Ie no #57 bit and no 1/8inch feed pipe. No store had them locally. Will be going to the city next week but was hoping to get something working before then. 

I have since soldered over the 1/16 hole and downsized it using a small piece of wire. Made a difference but not enough to get to welding temp. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I would change right off is the bell reducer. Reil's design specifies a 3/4 x 2". He goes further in specifying a particular grade (shape) but the size is more important. I know the 3/4 x 2" reducer isn't standard Home Depot stuff but its amazing the difference the bigger bell makes even if you have to reduce the little end like you did with the 1 1/4 bell. Coupled with what Frosty said about the supply tube, I think that would go a long way to getting closer to weld heat. The nipple in the bell could be an issue as well but not as much as the air restriction that the smaller bell is. Also, gonna have to get the right size drill bit for the fuel orifice however or it will never suck in enough air to match that amount of fuel.

Nother option; Ask Frosty about the "T-burner" :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to fix your burner and point at more of an angle, to increase swirl in the combustion gases; this is done to increase the amount of time those heated gases remain within the forge. Next, you need to use high temperature mortar to smooth out the forge interior. Finally, you need to place a round high alumina kiln shelf in front of, but an inch or so away from the front opening with a fairly small center slot for feeding material through it. I would also recommend using a high emissivity coating to paint all interior surfaces, and the side of the kiln shelf that faces toward the forge. These changes should take your forge to yellow-white heat. The Larry Zoeller Forge website has some free tips on setting up a coffee-can forge that are pretty good, but don't forget the kiln shelf baffle plate; they are inexpensive in that size at pottery supply stores.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't have a plumbing supply or big box store nearby? Wow, I thought Wasilla was a podunk town. About the toughest thing to come by is a #drill but they're about $3.00 ea. 7 miles from me.

It costs me about $10.00 and change to put together A 3/4" T burner and I have a couple brass fittings involved. You need a couple taps and drill bits too so that's another $10.00 give or take.

These things aren't hard to make but you have to work to reasonably precise standards. Of course I'm not so interested in making "Formula One" type burners like Mike, I'm a pickup truck kind of guy. ;)

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Frosty,

I was a pickup kind of guy for forty-six years; now I'm a Geo kind of guy. Seattle has smaller parking places all the time, and I can rent a pickup or have materials delivered for the occasional construction project. Like my buddy Dan said after his heart attack, "Superman doesn't live here anymore." I'd already had mine, and knew exactly what he meant.  We both changed our life styles in order to miss such events thereafter; very liberating it is too; I now have time to make Formula One burners, but I think of the "T" burner as more like a Geo, and would be perfectly happy to drive one. I'm more interested in Formula One heating equipment...at present B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ayup, I was referring to the difference between high performance and basic utilitarian. I was only retired 2 years and had time to start messing with high performance ideas when the tree got me I didn't even get the shop finished. My brain just isn't up to delving into tinkering high performance anymore. I just can't keep enough balls in the air now.

I'm not complaining, I'm alive and very much aware of how lucky I am. Superman just doesn't live here anymore.

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this