Worshipdrummer Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 7 hours ago, gote said: I was unable to post the whole message so I have sent it separately as mail. I got it, sounds good. Thanks for taking the time to send it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flankem Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Aww, I was interested to see the description as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I could not post this to the forum. Please acknowledgat that you got it. To solder is to join two metal parts using a metal with lower melting point. Thus brazing is a soldering method using brass (thus brazing) or other copper containing metals. (It is literally called hardsoldering in German and Swedish). It used to be a very common procedure but perhaps not in much use by blacksmiths. Silver- and goldsmiths use it extensively today. Solder for electrical joints contains tin with addition of lead and sometimes other metals. The advantage is that it is unnecessary to heat the work piece to melting point. The weakness is - well - weakness. The joint should be as good fit as possible and even if the solder is weak, the joint will be strong in compression. The surfaces must be very clean and one has to start by "wetting" the surfaces with the solder. It is important to use some kind of flux. Electric solders contain flux in the core. It is also possible to use fluids containing tin and hydrochloric acid. The best is probably to use a paste that is put on thinly and heated. Such pastes are available commercially and are used by panel beaters who repair or build automotive bodies. I would start by shopping around for a solder with low melting point and a suitable paste. The manufacturer will have manuals how to use it. Get as much info from the manufacturer as you can. There are solders that can be used at so low temperatures as 350°F. I would get the surfaces to be joined very flat, clean and a good fit. Preferably by machining but it is possible to use a angle grinder. I would then cover the surfaces with a thin coat of solder to make sure the solder will "take" on the whole joint. Then I would heat the top part of the anvil and the new top to soldering temperature. I would then put on a pool of more solder on the top of the anvil so any unevenness will be evened out. Then I would put on the top and tap on it so that excessive solder is squeezed out. Make sure there is no movement when the solder sets. I have not done this myself - here anvils are usually solid steel castings. However, I think that it will work since you will be able to find tin-based solder (probably containing bismuth) that will melt at a temperature that will not draw the temper of the anvil or new top. That tin is weak is inconsequential since the joint surface is very large and nearly all load will be in compression. Today it worked ! Posting I mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I understand that the face would be under compression on the hammer stroke itself, but wouldn't it be under tension on the rebound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubularfab Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 The strength properties of any solder that has a low enough melting point to not affect the heat treatment of the face plate are going to be so low that there is no hope of it lasting. It's a noble thought - but it just isn't going to work. Solder and shock impact loads don't mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Force 44 is a low temp silver solder and is in the 400° F range. The main thing with silver solders is getting a tight joint. Even with high temp silver solders or brazes, the top can be heated to the joining temp, laid on top of the cold buttered anvil, and sweated together. Then immediately quenched to harden the top. It won't be perfect, but it might work good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) I am afraid that there is no other way to make sure than by testing. I BELIEVE = do not know that it would work if the joint is thin enough and the top plate not too thin.. At the moment of rebound of the hammer, the anvil is still under compression (The surface pushes the hammer upwards) A tension would mean that the anvil is elastic enough to throw off the top. Not an impossible thought but the contact surface is very large compared with the rest energy that the hammer imparted (energy in hammer moving down - energy in hammer moving up.) Further, it is a question of hammer weight versus top plate weight. It would not be a question of strength in the solder. It is a question of fatigue and the top could be heated back if a crack develops. Would the top plate harden if quenched from 400°F?? Edited December 6, 2015 by gote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 400°F shouldn't affect the hardness much, but the higher temp silver solders in the 1,000+ degree range would. A lot would depend on what the top plate was made from. Steels like A-2 are air hardening, so heat to critical, let air cool to just above a the solder temp,clean, and lay on top to sweat together. A-2 gets brittle hard, so it would need to be tempered some. Thinner sections of steels like O-1 will also air harden, and I have just toughened some up at work by not taking it to full heat before quenching. Steels like 4140 would need a quench from the higher temp to get fully hard. It would tale some research, but I feel it could be done, and work. One of these days we need to just get some blocks of steel, and try out some different methods of repairs to get some hard evidence of how effective they really are. As to rebound and plate flex. How much does the plate actually move when hit? If it is backed up solid, I wouldn't think any at all. Also if it was a section of forklift tine that is 1.5" thick, I don't think you would move it at all even with a sledge if it was an anvil top plate. Good adhesion between the plates with a thin layer would be better than poorly fit up with a thick layer, as the thicker layer has more room to compress over time and shift. The rocket motors on the space shuttle were sweat soldered together, and they go through some pretty extreme thermal and vibrational shocks on launch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 I m happy for this debate to continue if you guys wish for educational purposes but for better or worse, my friend melted some residual steel that was left of the top into the base and quenched it to harden. I may not get maximum energy transference to the project piece but the anvil is solid, flat and I can use it. I really appreciate all of the advice because it gave me options. I will let you guys know how it performs long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 42 minutes ago, Worshipdrummer said: I m happy for this debate to continue if you guys wish for educational purposes but for better or worse, my friend melted some residual steel that was left of the top into the base and quenched it to harden. I may not get maximum energy transference to the project piece but the anvil is solid, flat and I can use it. I really appreciate all of the advice because it gave me options. I will let you guys know how it performs long term. Picture of the finished repair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 This is a picture when he was almost finished. There is a little less of a step between hardy area and the rest but this is accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 would you be so gracious as to post the typical rebound of a 1" ball bearing over each section? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 If you divide the repaired section into thirds starting close to the hardy area, It rebounds my lightest ball peen hammer (I do not have a bearing) about 65% for first third, middle third about 55% then the last third including the step to the horn about 70%. In other words the center of the repaired area has noticeably less rebound than the rest but it is by no means dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worshipdrummer Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Upon a retest, the middle third is more like %45. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 As interesting as this thread has been, would any of the big boys care to tell me how it is an "Anvil review by brand"? Cheers Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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