Lee Waite

What hammer would you build ?

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rusty, tire or Kinyon ?

i am a journeyman fabricator/welder of 30 + years experience and have a desire to now start blacksmithing.

So my question is, what would you build for a hammer and why ?

Thanks

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Tire; I've participated in a Rusty workshop and have seen tire hammes in use and am much more impressed by their action.

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That question begs another question.  What exactly do  you intend to do?   If it is money it is intended as a source of income then that defines your options

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If you plan on blade smithing  it is one thing if you plan on general work it is another.  Not full time sounds like Thomas Powers recommendation is gold.  I've seen a few in action that were extremely efficient.  

 

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It may make a difference in how much impact you need or want in forging.     Hammering pattern welded billets requires a much higher precision touch than hammering 1 inch iron bars for another purpose.   I'm not a blade smith and have only used  other peoples' power hammers.   I'm suggesting that blade smiths may need to weigh in on this.

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Looking into a crystal ball, the Kinyon seems that it would be easier to modify in the future if one decided to make some changes.  Everything is fairly easily adjustable with only minor changes.

Tire hammer is definitely better for someone without loads of compressed air and with less amperage to the shop.

Edited by Kozzy

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if you have the air sup ?? I would build a kinyon I am going to I hope this winter/ later next year ?

I have to many other projects now though to start on that one, search on you tube John Emmerling kinyon Ph 

thats what I would build I have run them & there SWEET !! one is just down the road from me made by John

I mite have an Idea / way to make the head unit a little easier machining wise but I need to make one first & test out !!

Steve's Welding & Fab

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Thanks guys

i think I'm going to build a Kinyon style hammer, in fact I may build two and sell one to cover my costs

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Good Morning,

If you are just starting out, I wouldn't be building a Power Hammer until you figured out how the material moves. Walk before you run! A Power Hammer can give you a hurt you can't heal from. Learn with a Hand Hammer.  Power Hammers don't seem to be a hardship to find in Saskatchewan, ask where you haven't been looking.

Typical first request for someone starting out, "I want to make a sword". Second typical request after 6 months to a year "I want to sell my Tools. I can't make them work". The Tools don't do the thinking and reasoning, You do!!

Neil

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Neil

any power hammers I've seen in Saskatchewan are usually old and wore out, plus people think they are worth way too much!

if you know where I should be looking then please enlighten me..

i understand how different metals move, l am a City &Guilds journeyman from England with a lot of years experience behind me.

i am also fifty years old and want a machine to do must of the grunt work before I finish it on the anvil by hand

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If you are just starting out, I wouldn't be building a Power Hammer until you figured out how the material moves. Walk before you run! A Power Hammer can give you a hurt you can't heal from. Learn with a Hand Hammer. ..........................Neil

1) Neil has a very good point.  Hand hammering and power hammering have the same movement of metal in common.  Learning to move metal by hand will lessen frustration when you first try using a power hammer.  I took a course on making pattern-welded knives with Rob Hudson many years ago.  The students worked as teams of two people, and a Little Giant power hammer was used for forge-welding and drawing out the billets.  By the second day of the course the more experienced member of each team was doing all the power hammer work for their team because the lesser experienced member of each team discovered that they didn't have the experience and ability to work with the power hammer. Working with a hand hammer gives you that experience and knowledge.

2) Forge welding involves pushing the liquid surfaces of multiple layers of metal together so that those liquid surfaces merge.  If the hammer instead strikes the metal with a sharp blow, the layers are more likely to bounce apart.  With most blacksmithing it may not matter if the hammer is striking with a dead blow or a sharp blow, but it does matter when you are forge-welding.

3) Trying equipment and using it, preferably in a classroom or other situation, is a good idea so that you can decide for yourself what equipment best fits your needs and work style.  Many years ago I purchased a stick welder before taking a welding course, and had to live for a while with the frustration of using a welder where you could not adjust the amperage properly until I could afford and could justify replacing it.  As an experienced welder I expect you would not recommend a person to purchase a welder, or any other equipment, until taking a course and learning a bit about welding machines/equipment. 

 

 

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Let me think.......

Hobby Blacksmith here so no 'for profit production'

very limited space, so it would need to be compact,

Unpowered forge, so it would have to be an unpowered hammer,

So that limits it to a drop or treadle type.

The advantage would be the ability to hold the work and a tool while striking, so......

It would have to be a small treadle hammer......Would making one be worth the effort?

As yet I'm undecided.....I'll have to see how life pans out!

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I find most folks that live there life as welder's & metal worker's are already smiths but don't know it !!

they just haven't hit an anvil yet to SET THE HOOK :wacko: they already know how to build things cold !

when you add Heat well life change's LOL ! then there building mind gos to work !! Hook is set !!

Fire fighters are also called by the anvil got to be the fire, a doctor retired I know never hit steel all his life we meet long back he need some rings & din;t want me to make them He wanted to so told him how came to hammer in & has be lost since lol

I started him on the road I saw what I call the need for steel & a UNKNOWN talent he had the first day on the anvil !!

I was the lead smith then well now I think I am the follower   --  Amazing when folks like that find there selfs

in any trade !!  they teach them self's & can't get enough !!!!!!!!

So what is a newbie ??

Edited by IronWolf

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In my experience I've not been that impressed with the "rusty" style hammers.  They are better than a sledge for moving steel, but the tire hammer has it beat hands down!

I'm a bladesmith that's branching into blacksmithing just a bit.  For me, I would be hard pressed to live without my hydraulic press or my power hammer.  I'm also in the middle of building a treadle hammer for certain operations.  For bladesmithing the power hammer and press really compliment one another.  What one sucks at, the other is good at.

I've been using a tire hammer for several years now and have really enjoyed it.  I've thought about maybe building a 100 pound version like the Anvil Fire X1.

That said, the main use I use either the press or power hammer for in bladesmithing is to turn large stock into small stock, very little shaping is done on either.  However, try to forge down some 1 1/2" 52100 square stock by hand, you'll be there for days beating the crap out of it, once it's down to about 1/4" thick it's not too bad.

If I was a full time smith I'd have a commercial air hammer, probably a self contained one like the Anyang.  If I was full time blacksmith I'd probably have something like the Iron Kiss or Big Blue.  The reason I don't have an air hammer is operating cost, your running a 5+ horse power motor, the power hammer runs on 120V 1 horse.  The press is a 3 horse motor, but it's not run nearly as much as the power hammer.

For blacksmithing you want something you can use tooling to do shaping, not just drawing stock out.

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I have been pondering hammers as well. One drawback to me for the Tire Hammers is the lack of clearance between the dies if you wanted to use tooling. Perhaps the design could be modified, but to my knowledge there is no way adjust them as with the Rusty style hammers.

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You can use tooling on either design.  Also the tire hammer can be adjusted, but it really shines for drawing out stock.  The biggest issue I had with the rusty I build was lack of power and control.  The tooling is one reason I'm building a treadle hammer.  I did make a set of extreme drawing dies for the tire hammer, but it's a little aggravating to change back and forth, though it's not that big of a deal.

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If you are interested in building a Ron Kinyon Mark II Pnuematic hammer you can contact me at  [email protected]   . Don't use the other email address that I posted in the forums awhile back. I have built this hammer and know many others who have built them and they are also very satisfied with them. I have also seen the tire Hammers working which operate similar to a Little Giant hammers and I think the Kinyon is the way to go if you want to save time, money and have more flexibility. The Kinyon has plenty of adjustments for head height, stroke length and speed and it takes up about the same amount of room as the tire hammers and. It also uses far fewer parts than the tire hammers. You can also build the Kinyon with an anvil height that is comfortable for you. You can also do a single blow with out any problem and easily use tooling with the head height adjustment.

I sell the plans for the Ron Kinyon Mark II with Ron's blessing and I wanted to update my email address since I don't check the one I used in my original post in the forums a few years ago very often.

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I would recommend that you take the time to go and find someone who has a good running kinyon and someone with a tire hammer and see what they are like in person. I visited 3 smiths with hydraulic presses before I built mine and it was worth the trip (to America from the Uk).

 If thats not possible then build the machine that you would be most comfortable making and using....Are you familiar with compressed air and its controls or with mechanical moving stuff?

I have used both types of hammer and have been impressed by them, I would keep a look out for a ready made old hammer whilst you go about building a new hammer.

 

 

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I disagree with the sentiment that you have to learn hand hammering before you learn power hammer work. That is the way that most people learn it because most people who forge are hobbyists or started as hobbyists and they are usually exposed to hand hammering first. At Scot Forge, where we use use huge hammers and presses, no one is taught hand hammer work. The issue is that at work they are trained by other more experienced men. If you have to learn on your own hand hammering is certainly less risky than power hammer work. That being said, I strongly recommend that whatever style machine you settle on, you either take a formal class on using power hammers or connect with local smiths experienced in power hammer work. There are also a number of good videos on power hammer work and they too are helpful, but hands on tutoring will cut your learning curve like nothing else.

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I think you're right Stuart that appears to have much better snap per blow. I have to say I don't think much of his anvil but the rest looks to be pretty sound engineering. It's really good to see the flywheel where it should be, between the motor and the tire where you want to store momentum. I'm also happy to see bearings where they are, on the pitman and crank arm.

I'd build it differently but structurally not conceptually. Good video, thanks for the link.

Frosty The Lucky.

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