T Burner Illustrated Directions

[ThomasPowers]

Lou; don't you date back to the age of carburetors?  A "slight" difference can mean the difference between driving and walking!

[JoeThePro]

I made one where I followed the directions exactly; it didn't work well because I tapped the fuel fitting at a 5-10 degree angle from shooting straight down the pipe.  This is a good design because it spells it all out, just like a baking recipe.  If you are going to tweak things (especially many things!), you aren't going to get the same result.

[Lou L]

I mean, seriously, did anyone pay attention to the details in my pictures?  A can of beans?  Who gets size perspective for an object in a photo with a can of beans?  

[Ted Ewert]

 Use only gas rated duct tape to attach the can.

[Buzzkill]

3 hours ago, Lou L said:

Now it should be obvious that the flames shouldn’t be coming out of the “T” but they still are.

Sorry, can't help you troubleshoot that. The minor modifications you made shouldn't have much effect on the flame at all.  Have you tried pointing it towards magnetic north when you fire it up?

[Lou L]

That’s MUCH better.  I already checked for magnetic north and tested the burner for continuity to verify.  

[RichG]

Frosty et al, 

Been lurkig for awhile to gain knowledge not available on YouTube. Tonight I tested my first ever  T burner based  on the instructions provided. The ONLY difference was not having the availability of Tweco tips so I went with another (same size). Once fired it seems to burn well. Nice blue flame, just a little orange feathering at the tip. This was a test outside of the forge, I’m finishing it tomorrow. I’m running a 30 PSI regulator. Here’s my issue. If I attempt to light at the end of the nozzle it chuffs out. Lighting at the jet it starts right up. I’ll try to post a video tomorrow just too old and tired right now. Any suggestions are appreciated. Please don’t yell, I’m a retired Homicide detective now working domestic violence for the DA/SAO so I have a fragile personality. Thanks!

Rich

[JHCC]

Welcome to IFI, Rich! If you haven’t yet, please READ THIS FIRST!!!

[Lou L]

Another “need help tuning” question.  Just built my t-burner and it blows the flame off the end of the burner at anything past 3psi.  When I have the psi low enough it chuffs and burns up into the mixing tube.  If I partially cover the the air intakes on the Tee it burns beautifully with a nice blue flame and a blue corona.  It is super sensitive, though, and if I move my fingers covering the intake at all it blows the flame out.  I’ve read that burners tend to do that until they get some back pressure from being inside a forge and I intend to connect this to a ribbon burner.  My first thought was to get the ribbon complete first and then tune it when the NARB is complete.  Is that a good direction or should I get it burning correctly prior to adding the ribbon?  Finally, which variable should I start playing with first?

Thanks for any input all.

Lou

[Buzzkill]

If you don't have a flare of some kind on the end of the burner you will not be able to keep it lit outside the forge at any normal operating pressure - at least not for any substantial amount of time.  If you're making a ribbon burner my suggestion is to wait to tune it with the burner head in place, and preferably in the forge.  My T burner powered ribbon burner tends to run a little richer than I'd like, but I haven't had time recently to tinker with it to get the ratio where I want it.  Regardless, rich flames do seem to stay lit better than neutral or lean flames in my limited experience.

Before I started using a ribbon burner or flares on my T burners it could be a bit of a challenge for a few minutes to keep the flame at the end of the burner even when in the forge. With one setup I used a couple pieces of duct tape in a manner similar to what you were doing with your fingers and gradually let more air in as the forge heated up.  Of course once the interior started glowing nicely then I could crank up the pressure as desired and remove the tape entirely with no flameouts.

[Lou L]

I only have a threaded merchant coupling on the end.  It was my understanding that those were Frosty’s version of a flare.  They don’t really taper, though, and I was wondering if the threading inside could cause issues.  Thanks for your insights.  It seems I’m headed in the right direction and I only need to forge ahead and follow some logical reasoning.  Best I figure it out on my own so I can actually understand.

[Buzzkill]

A taper isn't necessary. I used a larger size of pipe slid over the mixing tube for a flare, and it helped significantly with flame retention and stability.  However, I was able to slide it on the mixing tube to find the sweet spot of overhang past the end of the mixing tube to get the best results.  At one point I had used a reducer fitting threaded on the end, and even that seemed to help a lot compared to nothing at the end of the mixing tube.

[Howling dog forge]

 

first I would like to say, this is brilliant. 

 

I mad my T burner pretty much exactly as the design calls out and it performs quite well reasonably easy to light and quite stable as far as I have seen. I would ask those that are getting unstable after a few minutes if they have a gage to see what tank and delivery pressure are. this thing will frost up a 20 pretty quick but setting the bottle in a tub of water keeps the pressure much more stable. So far I am very impressed with the T burner for ease of construction, efficiency and performance. 

I am using a 3/4" SS coupling with the threads removed by a 5° taper. It is deteriorating faster than I should like and would wonder if there is anyone working with a refractory tip of some sort to actually be at the point of ignition.

[Howling dog forge]

On 7/19/2018 at 6:44 PM, ThomasPowers said:

Lou; don't you date back to the age of carburetors?  A "slight" difference can mean the difference between driving and walking!

Or driving about as fast as you could walk.

 

[DwayneTouchette]

Hi! Quick question. I just find in store a 3/4 by 3/4 tee... no 1 inch by 3/4... what should i expects from the burner... what other mesure should i change? I search everywhere and i didnt see any mention of that. thanks!

[Latticino]

I suggest you go to a plumbing supply store and get the correct reducing TEE fitting.  If you can't get one there, or order online from the many easily available sources, you might be able to limp by using a 1 x 1 x 1 TEE fitting with a 1 x 3/4 bushing that has been properly reamed out on the business end to provide smooth flow at the transition.  This is a good, relatively bulletproof design for a simple forge burner, but you have to use the right materials and assemble to the tolerances expected (especially the concentricity of the MIG tip with the mixing tube).

[Howling dog forge]

I just put together a 1/2" T burner with a .030 jet I am getting a lifting blue flame which , of course , will not stay lit. I have a 1/2" coupling on the end with the threads intact , no taper, 3/4" X 1/2" T and a 4 1/2" nipple/ mix chamber. the end/depth of the jet is quite close to centered in the 3/4" dimension of the T I suspect I need to reduce the jet to .025. Any comments?

 

[Latticino]

Start by reducing jet.  Hopefully you have an adjustable regulator and have already turned that down to try to avoid the "lift off" (that is a symptom of the air gas mixture volume flowrate producing a terminal velocity that exceeds the flame front burning speed).  If lowering that flow rate with the regulator won't help, a reduced MIG tip diameter is your best bet.  You might even need to go further down than .025, I don't' recall what Frosty recommends for a 1/2" burner tube.

[Buzzkill]

I've always used .023 mig tips for 1/2" T burners and have had good results.

[Howling dog forge]

I am guessing a .023 mig tip would have a .025 hole. or pretty close.

[Another FrankenBurner]

According to Ron Reil's website, the .023 mig tip has an actual orifice of .031" and the .030 mig tip you are currently using has an actual orifice of .038".  I have built the 1/2 Frosty T burner using the same T and length of mix tube.  Even the .025 tip ran a little rich for me so I installed the .023 mig tip and it does better.  It turned out to be a nice burner.

[Frosty]

Been busy guys, ran bury cable to the shop, I'll have REAL power as soon as I can get a club member electrician to connect the panels.

Nice drill jig Howling Dog! Can you use it with the tap too?

I made one with a cheap hole saw I ground the teeth off but you need a proper caliper and shop skills to measure one to fit through the T's threads without damaging them so I never brought it up.

Dwayne: Latticino is right but If all you can find is a 3/4"T use a 0.030 mig contact tip. However 3/4" x 1" is a very common fitting, standard in fact but the Big Box stores don't carry stuff for the professionals, they're home fixit places. Try a proper plumbing supply, a HVAC supply should carry everything. 

Try to adapt a T with bushing reduces as an absolute LAST resort. You're better off to make a smaller burner or just drop a jet size and use what you have. Bushing reducers screw up the air flow so badly it's hard to recover decent performance. Typically you CAN MAKE ONE WORK and I've seen 3/4" Ts stepped down from 1" Ts but the performance is about what I'd expect from a 1/2" T burner. No fooling about half power to the forge.

I've never taking my feeler gauges to mig tips so I don't know what their actual ID is. The number indicates the size welding wire they're designed to pass so expect them to be a couple few thousandths larger than the rated size. Guessing 0.023" mig tip has an orifice of 0.025" is probably close. 

I don't bother with exact dimensions, or any other proper sci stuff, I just tinkered till I got something that works and tune by eye and ear. That's why I fine tune mine by filing the mig tips or screw the mounting tube in or out. Mike slides the flare outlet in and out like a Trombone to fine tune.

SS flares are nice things but if you don't use Jet or rocket engine alloys they will burn up. I diped my thread protector nozzles in porcelain slip when I still had some, now I paint in the threads with Kastolite 30. Seems to make them last a few years. It's not to smooth the threads it's to put in a flame face that won't oxidize like steel or SS, or . . . 

Curtis: Ron is into doing the math so it's no surprise he knows what the actual ID vs ratted Dias are. However, it varies by manufacturer and even production run within single manufacturer. Brand name doesn't mean a whole lot as they put production runs out to bid and as long as wire passes smoothly and makes good contact they don't care. 

The ONLY way you can rely on fluidics math to make these things is if you either buy or make proper jets. Then you'll need to make proper mixing tubes and intake ports. Oh and say good by to easy to make home built burners. 

Even commercial forge makers are going with plumbing store linear burners.

These things are really easy to over think to no real benefit. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Howling dog forge]

Can't take credit for the drill fixture , it belongs to square nail. I an misfortunate enough have a lathe so creativity like this is not something I got to experience. I do think it is brilliant though. 

Right now I am working on a 1/2" T burner and I have to say it has, so far , been much more challenging than the 3/4" was. I used a 3/4" X 1/2" T with a 4 1/2" nipple and a cast steel nippli on the end. The 1st jet was drilled to .03. I could not get the flame to settle on the end and actually light until I was down to about 1 psig and then it was completely unstable. I made two new jets drilled to .025 and .02 and  basically got the same results. I cleaned out the threads in the tip coupling and managed to get it lit with the .025 jet.  Strangely enough I cut a 10° angle on the inside of the coupling and it would no longer stay lit. I cut the threads out of a cast 304 SS 1/2" coupling and it will hold a flame but not at pressure above 10 psig. 

I understand that what happens mounted in a vice and what happens in a forge are quite different and I am prepared to work with the burner more after I have a box to put in in but it seemed like a good idea to have a burner that would at very least light and stay lit until it was in a hot enough environment to effect   its operation. 

Here are a couple of pictures of the flame for what they are worth. I think I have enough of a burner that I can feel confident of some success with a forge to fit it. Look for a new thread on the construction of the "Small Dog Box", or maybe I will just put it on the end of the Dog box build. There are a couple new ideas I want to try on the design and construction. 

 

[Another FrankenBurner]

You said you drilled new jets.  Can you get a good picture of your fuel fitting assembly including the jet?  Is the jet's position adjustable within the Tee?  

[Howling dog forge]

On 9/13/2018 at 12:54 AM, AnotherCurtis said:

quote trimmed  Is the jet's position adjustable within the Tee?  

yes it is , the jet is a 1/2" brass shaft threaded 20 tpi, the end is taped for a 1/8" npt fitting counter board 1/4"  to .25 from the end and drilled .025. the t is drilled and tapped 1/2"X20 tpi. I will post pictures next time I swing by the house.

It seems to work a bit better when it is screwed out past center, I believe this in leaning the fuel to air, is that correct?