Frosty

T Burner Illustrated Directions

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I live in Colorado and I hear alot that forced air is recommended here. I see alot of atmospheric burners here so, what gives?  Personally I think it's a pain in the ass to have forced air. I am currently in the process of deciding on building new burners that are either Frosty's T burner style or bell reducer style. I was wondering what the difference is between the two. Does anyone have any insight on which is better?  I'm looking at both styles but am kinda leaning towards the T burners. I'm thinking that since I'm at @ 5000' above sea level then the T burner would produce more O2 mixture. So?????

Thanks, Chris

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Frosty: I just wanted to thank you for this post.

I got much better results with your plans. When I get it moved inside out of the breeze, I'll get better pics. (First time messing with it, didn't want to blow up the shop if I did something wrong)

20181223_115218.jpg

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The T-burner is particularly fussy about operating outside in the wind.  I took one of the popcorn tins that are typically sold around Christmas time and made it into a wind screen to protect the air intake of my t-burner, as it's running on a forge outside, under a maple tree in my back yard,.

 

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Using it outside wasn't really a thought. I was just doing some testing on it outside. I have a big enough garage that I don't really use, so I'm gonna turn it into the shop.

The design has been great as far as the burner goes. I just wish I had done MORE research before building that forge. Yeah it'll heat and quickly too. However it is the first one and hindsight is 20/20

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Running NA burners at any elevation is only a matter of tuning. The ratio of oxy to nitrogen doesn't change with altitude, it's all thinner. Just tune it till it's burning as desired.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Help with my T-burner. Fired it up and it seems to work pretty well but it seems to suck in the exhaust and start huffing. Thinking about building some type of wind screen to help with that and also any wind blowing, since I forge outside!

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Welcome aboard, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the gang live within visiting distance. 

Yeah, T burners don't like breezes, too much back pressure breathing exhaust, not at all. I can't tell enough to make useful suggestions without a look see. A pic of the whole set up so I can see how you have everything arranged, a shot of the burner from shell to the top of the T.

Then a couple pics of it running, when you first light it and it's working for you, one in the door and one from the side against something dark so I can see what the flames look like coming out the door.

Then a couple pics from the same angles when it starts acting up.

No videos please I can tell what I need from stills and we won't burn a bunch of bandwidth for all the members on dialup connections. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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On 12/15/2018 at 1:05 PM, chris freeman said:

live in Colorado and I hear alot that forced air is recommended here. I see alot of atmospheric burners here so, what gives?  Personally I think it's a pain in the ass to have forced air. I am currently in the process of deciding on building new burners that are either Frosty's T burner style or bell reducer style. I was wondering what the difference is between the two. Does anyone have any insight on which is better?  I'm looking at both styles but am kinda leaning towards the T burners. I'm thinking that since I'm at @ 5000' above sea level then the T burner would produce more O2 mixture. So?????

Elevation mattered for naturally aspirated burners about twenty years back. With today's burner designs, its" old news."

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Hi,

I'm new to the forum and I'm from Australia. I've been looking for parts over here to make a 3/4" T burner and I can only find equal tee couplers (Don't get me started on all the metric conversions I have to do for all these fittings!). I have manged to find 1" male to 3/4" female reducing hex fitting (looks like someone drilled and tapped a 3/4" hole through a 1" male threaded hex plug) will this work to create a reducing T from a 1" equal T, or would this type of thing cause turbulence issues?  

OR, would a 3/4" equal T be better (though not as efficient as the intended design)?

Any help greatly appreciated!

Jono (Hefty).

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If the 1inch male fittings are on two ends with the narrower female fitting is on the other end you should be good.  The entire point is that the end leading to the mixing tube is 3/4 inch or about 19 mm and the two other ends are larger allowing more air to be drawn into the mixing tube via Venturi effect.  There is a little room to play around and they are easy enough to build that you can experiment rather cheaply.  Don’t get so caught up in exact measurements as proportions.  Frosty may jump in and correct me soon enough!

Have fun experimenting.

Lou

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Welcome aboard Hefty, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many members live within visiting distance. Telling us once in a post won't stick in our memories once we open another, we're blacksmiths, not memory wizards.

Where are you shopping for fittings? Big box stores only carry a few of the best sellers of most anything, even good hardware stores are only a little better. You need to go to a real plumbing supply, call a plumber if you can't find one. 3/4" x 1" Ts are common. Metric schmetric, build with what you have available. 

I'd change the brass fitting in which I mount the jet (mig contact tip.) Seems everybody here is buying from China and the ID is no longer the right dimension to tap for the jet. One of the guys in the club uses 1/8" flare to 1/8" flare and taps the T to fit. If you're going to use copper for the final supply this is what I'll be using from now on. You can buy 1/8" flare to 3/8" tapered male pipe thread and it will connect directly to an American propane hose. ONLY do that if your burner is NOT aimed straight down from above or the chimney effect will eventaully ruin the hose when you turn it off.

If you can't find the equivalent of a 3/4" x 1" T use a 3/4" x 3/4" and a smaller mig contact tip. The velocity of the primary pressure (stream of propane) needs to be higher to induce enough air through the smaller ports. It will mean the flame will be faster and blow through the forge faster. It's no big deal, just a matter of getting it tuned.

A faster burner will probably benefit from a flare of some sort, I don't put flares on mine you'll just need to experiment a little and it WILL effect tuning it. 

Give a shout if you have more questions but do NOT give up, we'll get you up and forging.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thanks Lou and Frosty.

I've been shopping in Bunnings which is our main big box hardware supplier but even then they only have gal fittings that I would have to vinegar soak and scrub. My closest plumbing supplier mainly stocks crimp pipe connectors and gal fittings (but no gal Ts!!!).  I found one black pipe 3/4 x 1" T online, and price and shipping were a lot more than I originally expected. I'm thinking I might have to go with this one anyway. Otherwise, if I can tune with a smaller mig tip, then yes I might do that.

Frosty: re the 1/8" flare to 1/8" flare, do you mean he taps the T to receive the 1/8" flare instead of the compression nut and then taps the inside of the flare for the mig tip?

Oh and one more question: would a 20psi adjustable reg be sufficient for a 3/4"? if so, what about two? (Not sure if I'm going to make 2 yet, pending some forge plan decisions)

Cheers,

Jono.

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Your welcome Jono, it's our pleasure.

Don't sweat a galvy T, it's far enough from the forge it won't get hot enough to be a hazard. The 6" nipple (Mixing Tube) will get hot enough to burn zinc it must be black iron or stripped. No zinc on the mixing tube!

5 minutes ago, Hefty said:

Frosty: re the 1/8" flare to 1/8" flare, do you mean he taps the T to receive the 1/8" flare instead of the compression nut and then taps the inside of the flare for the mig tip?

Exactly, you got it Brother.

I've been running the same 0-20psi adjustable regulator on my forges for at least 30 years without problem. My silly too LARGE shop has four, /4" T burners and it supplies them easily.

Frosty The Lucky.

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So, I've done a a little more research and I can only find a 1/8" flare to 1/8" flare union in one place, and they are out of stock. I have some 1/4" flare fittings and tube left over from a camper trailer gas install that was removed that could get me from a regulator, through a ball valve to a tee to send two 3/4" burners into a old gas bottle (propane tank) forge. But, what sort of fitting would I need to use to get from 1/8" flare going into the burner to 1/4" flare for the copper tube? I haven't found unequal flare unions.

Does that even make sense? I'm reasonably new to all the thread and fitting standards.

Cheers,

Jono.

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I'd have to drive to the HVAC supply down the road and have a chat with the guys. I don't know what you have available, what's common or how you plumb things. I had a thought re-reading this, I don't know what threads mig tips you have available are, some of our guys can only get metric and that changes the ID requirement for the mig tip to T to propane supply. 

The easiest thing might be to orient your burners horizontally so heat won't be drawn up them when you shut down. That way you can run rubber hose straight to the burners from a T at the regulator. Or you can use a T closer to the burners and run short hoses.

Anyway, I don't know of a 1/4" flare to 1/8" flare either I'd try and use something other than the 1/4" copper even if you have it on hand. Just because you have a thing does NOT mean you have to use it. Lots of other things you can do with 1/4" copper ad you  never know when the trailer will need more. 

If you do ask for help at a local plumbing supply don't tell them you are making a home built propane burning appliance! They have to worry about liability if they tell someone how to do something they should be hiring a professional to do and the home handy guy blows himself to kingdom come. I don't know about down under but here liability lawyers have big homes, expensive cars, fancy boats and mistresses to pay for so a business has to be careful.

I've known the guys up the road for about 20 years now and I can tell them what I'm doing without them getting all spooky. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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The mig tips I have access to are 0.6mm, 0.8mm and 0.9mm. The 0.9mm has an M6 or very close to 1/4" thread but I wasn't sure if the ID of a 1/4" flare would give enough metal to tap the thread into.

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I apologize, I misspoke. I meant 1/4" flare to 1/4" flare unions to make up to the T. OR 1/8" PIPE to 1/4" flare. 

I never know if brass fittings will have an ID I can tap so I take the drill bit used for the tap with me to the plumbing store and use it to gauge the fittings. The drill bit has to barely fit the ID or be to large to fit so I can chase the ID to the correct dia. and tap it. Make sense?

I can't judge the mig tips you have access too, one of our guys and a good friend of mine uses metric mig tips and I can't remember the particulars.

Frosty The Lucky.

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16 hours ago, Frosty said:

I apologize, I misspoke. I meant 1/4" flare to 1/4" flare unions to make up to the T. OR 1/8" PIPE to 1/4" flare. 

I never know if brass fittings will have an ID I can tap so I take the drill bit used for the tap with me to the plumbing store and use it to gauge the fittings. The drill bit has to barely fit the ID or be to large to fit so I can chase the ID to the correct dia. and tap it. Make sense?

Yeah, that makes sense. It's also great news that you meant 1/4" flare to 1/4" flare to the T because I can find them in those sizes much more easily. It also means I can test ID with my existing fittings before buying something that doesn't fit.

 

Cheers,

Jono.

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I'm glad I caught my mistake soon enough to keep from screwing your builds up too badly. Sometimes my mind just gets stuck on a wrong detail. 

Yes, taking the drill bit to the plumbing store is the easy way, I do it for any fitting I may need to tap. The guys at "Gold Star Plumbing" stopped batting an eye when I go shopping in their fittings. You'd be surprised what you'll discover if you take a pair of calipers to iron plumbing fittings. There's a lot of variance but the threads are tapered so it doesn't matter for the intended purpose. What I had in mind on the other hand . . . Didn't pan out so who cares? :huh:

Frosty The Lucky.

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