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Questions about forge insulation


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Frosty,

Dr. Frankenburner, designer of Formula One heating equipment totally agrees with your viewpoint; there ain't no sucha thing as the PERFECT burner or the PERFECT forge, casting furnace, pottery kiln, etc. Ive been at this for sixteen years and still think up improvements for equipment I just finished constructing:P However, there is also the opposite extreme; namely mistaking just any ol thing we slap together for "good enough." My advice to the average Joe or Jane is "learn all you can first, and avoid all extremes.

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Also, all castable hot-face liners are NOT the same. Kast-0-lite 3000 is an extra tough semi-insulating refractory (almost as insulating as 2600 degree refractory). No ordinary hard refractory is anywhere near as protective for secondary insulation layers as Kast-0-lite 3000; it is also very convenient to work with, being both tougher and softer before heat curing than other high heat castable refractories, which is very convenient when you're trying to level the edges of poured layers for flame tight seams.

Charles,

You must have belonged to ABANA's news group Theforge, way back when. I didn't expect to have my alter ego outed that fast...outside of a casting group:)

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Ironhawk,

I'm pretty Leary of inviting perfect strangers to visit at my home, but am perfectly willing to meet for coffee and get acquainted; also willing to provide on-site advice, and parts from the endless leftovers my burner experiments generate. My friends all belong to a local casting group that meets once a month; there is a meeting coming up soon; you could hardly make a better move than getting to know these guys.

One of those friends, Dan, also built the five-gallon propane cylinder forge featured in my book, which he might be talked into bringing to the next meeting, so that you can see one operating.

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Mikey98118-

That would be great. I definitely could use some contacts up here. It would be good to have some experienced folks to be able to get together with. When and where is the meeting? I would appreciate the chance to meet up with a good group. Also if you wanted to get together sometime just let me know. 

Currently I have decided to use 1" superwool 607HT and green patch 421 kiln cement to line my forge. I am Currently building the body of the forge and will be putting the burners together in the next few days. Hope to fire it up in the next month after my wife and I move into our house. 

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You're absolutely right Mike, good enough has to BE good enough. Some folk's reading comprehension isn't good enough to make good enough no matter how much they read. I think we've both written and rewritten enough to illustrate the point.

My thinking is if I EVER get good enough to write instructions everybody understands I'll just stop with one tiny bit of perfection to my name.

If I had a different paycheck job in the day I probably would've been Dr. Oppenburner working on my latest incarnation of the positron burner or some such. I still have mental images of different burner designs not including metal spinning burner bodies.

One I've never even seen the likes of is the standing wave cavitation pocket to combine the air fuel as completely as it can get. I just don't think anybody's ready for a standing wave sonic boom in the forge though. They're already pretty loud.

Frosty The Lucky.

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WayneCoe,

Your dad was a smart man; if ever a pithy-grabber  was spoke, that is one.

It's also pretty important to know what goes where, and why, if we want to end up with a good enough piece of equipment; otherwise, we are simply trying to stumble through to the finish line on luck! The only exception to complete understanding is building on faith, based on a complete set of instructions.

Frosty,

Very few of us write well enough to hold the interest of the average reader. My first book was written for starving artists; people who had earned a bachelor of arts degree in fine arts from a typical American college; only to discover that they were never taught the skills needed to create first rate multimedia art, and who could never afford to buy the equipment; I wrote it for people who would be driven to pay close attention to its building instructions, and only bothered reciting the reasons why the equipment worked so well for any of them with left over curiosity after equipment construction.

My family was thrilled that one of them was a published author, but none of these highly intelligent people could make it through  more than a few pages of the text; this was because they had no interest in the subject. Driving interest trumps all other factors, but is seldom seen:P

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On 2016-01-30 at 1:21 PM, Ironhawk said:

Mikey98118-

That would be great. I definitely could use some contacts up here. It would be good to have some experienced folks to be able to get together with. When and where is the meeting? I would appreciate the chance to meet up with a good group.

Good Morning IronHawk.

There is a very large knowledgeable group of people in your area, North West Blacksmith Association. There are monthly get-togethers in Longview at the Fairgrounds.

There are quite a lot of members in the Puget Sound area.

Neil

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Yes, the blacksmith group will certainly do him more good overall; however, when it comes to burners and heating equipment, the casting group will probably be more valuable to  him. Of course, nothing prevents him from using both sources.

Mikey- I agree, I think I would find both groups helpful. I will be in contact in the next day or so. Thank you for all the info and the offer! 

 

On Monday, February 01, 2016 at 4:03 PM, swedefiddle said:

 

Swedefiddle- I would definitely enjoy getting to go to a NWBA meeting. Do you have contact info for whoever I need to talk to about going to a meeting or is it something I just show up to? Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to make this month's meeting due to a busy work schedule and low finances but I should be able to make the march meeting.

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  • 7 years later...

In Seattle area and New to the form and blacksmithing. Took a few classes and then decided to purchase a Vevor 2 burner forge online as a start for doing some work at home. Seems everyone is treating the insulation with something, the directions for the forge say nothing about it! Are they pretreated or is it just not addressed by the manufacturer? anyone use the Vevor forges and what do you recommend? I have fired it up twice just to see how it works and play with the air/lp mix, would love some advice on what psi someone uses with one of these as well!

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Which Vevor 2 burner forge are you looking at? I just took a look and the "new" model advertises a "refractory cement" flame face. While refractory cement is properly a term for mortar for sticking bricks together the popular current term is for that or a refractory. Cements are formulated to stick things together while a "refractory" is formulated for flame contact. Propane flame is very chemically active, especially at the temps a decent forge attains.

There is no telling what product they use for the flame face but you can buy good refractory in small quantities from the Iforge store, the button is at the top of the page. I don't know what's in stock, ask Glenn. 

I recommend using Kastolite 30 bubble alumina refractory. It's a water setting 3,000f refractory that uses evacuated spherules as part of the aggregate for light weight but also provides insulation. The final flame face I prefer is "Plistex" a high alumina ceramic kiln wash that fires hard and abrasion resistant and makes a IR re-radiating inner face.

I don't care for using a fire brick as the forge floor, they take up valuable space and aren't particularly flux resistant. Kastolite 30 laid maybe 3/8" thick is concrete hard at 3,000f and being an alumina refractory is flux resistant, the kiln wash is another layer of armor to help preserve your forge liner. Forge liners are a wear item, they WILL burn out in time, some last longer than others though and some have the added benefit of being more insulating.

One last word about what I can see of the Vevor forge, it REALLY needs thermal baffles to help contain the heat. A search using your favorite search engine for "thermal baffle" with the addition if Iforgeiron in the terms will hit on some of the many conversations we've had about them and how we like to mount them.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty,

The model number of the Vevor forge I got is JH-FXL004. Below is the Vevor website for this model and all they say is:

About this item

  • Striking Power Output: Our propane knife forge is built to provide an approximate maximum heating temperature of 2300°F /1300
  • C, enough for forging most metals. The 23 kW•h / 80000 BTU

burner can boost the heating efficiency. The thick zr-al insulation blanket and forge lid will help maintain the temperature for a long time.

  • Large Chamber Size: Our propane forge boasts a spacious workspace, providing the ideal exposure to flame center spot thanks to the suitable chamber volume. Meanwhile, the shell made of steel is relatively rigid and durable for long-term usage.
  • Gas Regulator & Flexible: This farrier forge has the function of gas pressure adjustment through spinning the knob on the gas pressure regulator. Besides, the ball valve can switch the gas output independently.
  • Blacksmithing Forge Kit: We provide a complete kit of forging accessories to fit our propane forge, including a 9.8 ft long gas hose, furnace bracket, fire brick, high-temperature glove, and a tong. You can create your blacksmithing works at your will.
  • Steps for Usage: Here is the basic using instruction of this propane forge for knife making. Firstly, put the fire brick into the forge. Secondly, put a lit combustible into the forge. Then, open all the gas inlet valves. Finally, adjust the gas pressure to control the firepower depending on your need.

Commercial link removed per TOS

I am not knowledgeable about refractory insulation and am clueless if their zr-al insulation blanket is even similar to the toxic insulation mentioned in the earlier parts of this thread. 

As bad as it might sound I'm not overly concerned about it being the best forge and spent the $160 online to get something that would let me practice some simple basics of Blacksmithing and get a better feel for if it was something that I wanted to continue pursuing and then spend the $$$$ to get something better when I had acquired some knowledge, skills, and preferences. The manufacturer directions don't really give much information on proper use, and the first time I fired it up it smoked badly as the burner opening was partially covered by the insulation, which prompted me reading more and finding this form. It was simple enough to get the material cleared out of the burner opening, didn't smoke on second firing after, but did have an odor. I already scared 50% of my lung tissue from exposure to burning toxic waste in Iraq and I don't want to add to that problem. 
 

I hope you can forgive my ignorance, I appreciate your time and detail in your reply. For the FNG novice who is practicing basics of working metal is the refractory kiln wash you recommend something you'd think is needed to make it less of a potential health hazard to use? Or is it more a performance and efficiency modification?

I will definitely check out the thermal baffles, and don't love the fire brick, but I'd like to modify this beginner forge as little as necessary and invest in the next one if/when I get to the point of making something more than just fun and mistakes lol. Even if I keep going with this forge, the lining being a wear item makes me think that upgrading when this lining is done would still get me far enough down the road to know it's something that I would like to be investing the time and money in. 
 

hopefully that all makes sense and thank you again for your time and knowledge 

Edited by Mod30
Remove commercial link per TOS
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wow, those vevor forges looks like a copy of devilsforges.

Those last ones come with instructions and some sort of protection for the insulation. (don't rub to much against it however, you will poke holes thru the protection).

If you already have problems with your lungs, maybe wear a respirator during the forging sessions. You will hit the insulation or the thin layer of protection on top and by doing so increasing the change of getting the stuff in your lungs. 

If your skills improve and the forge is spend (worn out, ...) and you transition to a better forge (buy new or build your own) you can add beter protection layers on top of the insulation. You will find out, there are much better designs in forges than vevor or devilforge. So no need to rebuild/restore them.

At least that is my plan, but i do need to fix the holes i rubbed in my protection layer otherwise I will run out of insulation on that spot and prematurely need a new forge before my skill-level improved a lot.

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Good Morning Wildchild,

If you live in Seattle, you live in the center of North West Blacksmith Association (NWBA). There are many members in your area. Check out www.blacksmith.org   I also am a member, if you can't hook up, send me a PM and I can direct you.

Welcome to this Forum, there is a HUGE Knowledge base!!

Enjoy your Journey,

Neil

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There's nothing to apologize for, knowing you don't know is the first step to education. You're doing fine. 

I read the material you included in your last post and was speaking to it. Unfortunately as you know, you don't know enough to understand the answers. Again, normal normal don't sweat it.

Gewoon covered the safety basics I wasn't clear enough about. Wear a dust mask. The breathing hazard ceramic fiber insulation poses is NOT toxins it is vitrified fibers breaking loose and floating around your breathable air and that is taken care of with a good dust mask. 

When this one's liner wears out you can reline it with better or buy/build much better. "Distribution International" has offices in Renton Wa. They prefer to sell to distributors but might sell to individuals or will certainly put you in contact with retailers. Don't be confused by this but "D I" is one of the largest suppliers of insulation of all kinds this side of the ocean and carry more kinds of furnace refractories than a boy could want.

For experimenting with forges and learning the craft "D I" carries Morgan Thermal Ceramics K-26 insulating fire brick or perhaps they've upgraded their stock to a higher temperature rating. A "brick pile" forge is just that a stack of brick that forms a forge chamber. K-26 insulating fire brick has a working max temp rating of 2,600f and withstands the rapid temperature changes found in propane forges. It remains hard and reasonably durable at temp doesn't shed the harmful fibers ceramic blanket does. Wearing a dust mask is still a good idea. 

Once you've gotten your feet wet and either need to replace or want to upgrade I highly recommend a brick pile forge. If you don't like the size or shape simply move the bricks once it's cooled down. Make sense?

The Vevor will get you started, wear PPE and make SURE the ventilation is crazy good. Carbon Monoxide is insidious and cumulative so run your forge in a space where you and yours do not live. An attached garage isn't optimum, you live in the same building. Yes? Lots of folk with limited space place the propane forge outside a door with the anvil, vise, etc. inside the door so it's close but the forge exhaust is outside. 

 I hope I'm not overwhelming you with . . . stuff. I'm not good at being less than long winded.

Stick with us, we'll be more than happy to help you get thoroughly addicted to the blacksmith's craft.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Welcome from the Ozark mountains. There are a lot of us veterans on the forum. You might want to go to this thread in Introduce Yourself and tell us a little about yourself.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/65542-military-veterans/

Upgrading your forge with Kast- O- Lite 30 would be very easy and the forum has a store to get it.

progress/https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/254-gas-forge-refractories-and-supplies/

My wife & I built our forge from a 20 lb old propane tank with everyone's help here and it works like a champ.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/50381-20-pound-propane-tank-forge-in-

 

 

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