Coal or coke?

[Seek]

Tomorrow I hope to have some time for the hobby again (Mondays of are great, the neighbourhood is quite deserted so i don't bother too many people). I will make some pictures. I do like burnig the charcoal and it is easilly available. But my current setup isn't deep enough so I struggle to get high temperature. I got some fire bricks so I can pile it up higher. Hopefully that helps to get a hotter fire too.

 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

A side blast is easy to build, in reality it is a hole in the ground brought up to anvil hight for conviniance. Charcoal brickets are coal dust, clay and sawdust mostly. They make klinker and hevy dust. Lump on the other hand usualy isnt fully "cooked" but works very well as do home made from construction waste (but one has to be carful and build a retort

As it can be a smokey endevor. 

[Frosty]

Actually charcoal briquettes are charcoal dust from the manufacture of wood alcohol, acetone, keytone, etc. During WWI Henry Ford was running huge charcoaling ovens to manufacture wood alcohol for the war effort, torpedo fuel comes to mind but there were lots of uses. Anyway, enormous piles of charcoal dust were accumulating, blowing around and generally causing problems. Someone came up with the idea of pressing it into logs for home heating and before long people were cooking with them. Ford realized small press molds worked better, faster and took less energy so he invented the briquette.

Powdered charcoal needs a binder to hold it in a briquette and a lot of things were tried including tar but the ones that have come to common use are: Powdered anthracite, liquified wood pulp, milk glue and losing popularity clay.

I'm not saying briquettes are good forge fuel but they're not the forge poison common opinion says they are. Modern ones are pretty safe if you break them up into marble size pieces and try to avoid the ones saying Kaolin on the bag as an additive, that's the clay binder and can get clinkery after a while.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Augus7us]

Interesting stuff Frosty, good to know!

I've been forging for a little over a year and here's what I've found so far. Coke definitely creates less smoke while working the fire. When burning only coke I can pretty much keep the smoke to practically non existent aside from getting it started. It burns very clean for me. The downsides are getting it started is a real pain. I can't get it started without using charcoal or wood. Keeping it lit is also difficult compared to coal. It doesn't clump like coal. With coal I can make a "cave" out of the coal so its hot on the sides, top and bottom. Coke pieces won't stick to each other. It also burns very hot for me and find it much easier to over heat my steel with it. I get more clinkers with coke also which I've found odd.

I love coal. I like the smell, I like how easy it is to maintain a fire, I like how easy it starts... I don't like the smoke when I'm coking coal though. By comparison I can start a coal fire with one sheet of newspaper. I get less clinkers and find my temperatures are easier to manage with coal.

Over time I'll probably have different experiences with each and right now I may have to go back to coke to limit the smoke. But so far I'll take coal over coke. As Frosty said get a bag of each and find out which one you like better. Once you've decide you can mix them to use up the one you don't like as much.

[Frosty]

Just so you guys don't get the idea I'm suggesting briquettes for fuel, just that they're not the bad juju their reputation says they are.

The volatiles are burned out of coke and it's the tarry goop that causes coal to stick together and cave up. The volatiles are also more easily flammable so a coal fire stays lit more easily.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Seek]

Here is a picture of my forge while it is still empty.

Air comes from below through a rather thick pipe, a good 2" inside diameter. The blower is plenty strong enough and I run it on half power with a big old rheostat. The fire bricks are new (as you can see) and helped a lot to build a higher fire today. The brake rotor is only 4 cm deep, pretty shallow. 

And here is also a video with the setup running on full power. This is during the short period that everything is perfect. I start with a lot of fresh black charcoal. Then rather quickly the amount of fuel diminishes until I am back to a very shallow fire again. But i can make steel hot as you see. At one point I even had a little bit of sparkling (luckily on an unimportant piece). 

I would apreciate any tips to enhance the efficiency. Keep in mind that I live in a rather crowded area and do this at the back of the garden! Today I used close to 10 kg of charcoal to make some tongs. 

 

IMG_2191.MOV

Here is the link to the youtube video:

Forge fire.

[the iron dwarf]

forbidden

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yel, that set up will eat charcoal like the dickens. Cut down a coffee can to fit in the fire pot, notch the sides so as to pass a bar the hot spot that should be 3-4 inches above the tuyeer depending on how much air your blowing. I sugjest starting at 6" and working down till you find it. If you are foating the embers and have a shower or fire flease back off the air

[the iron dwarf]

been to an event this weekend demoing and 2 days use of my bottom blast forge with breeze we used less than a 20kg bag, dont know why some people use so much fuel or have so much trouble.

when we get a clinker we just turn off the air, rake the coals to one side and carefully remove the donut shaped clinker, rake the coals back and mostly in under 2 minutes are ready to heat and beat

tried many times to post this in the coal or coke thread but kept getting forbidden

[Seek]

I am not familiar with coffee cans. A round tin I suppose, what size are they in the US? How about closing in the fire bricks, so the area in between is smaller?

 

[ThomasPowers]

Move the firebricks on the right and left of the fire pot till their inner edges are aligned with the edge of the pot depression---make a trough to put your metal in.the charcoal pile.

I will generally also lay a brick down flat at the ends of the trough to keep the charcoal from getting knocked out of the trough as much when you are putting iron in or taking it out.

[Charles R. Stevens]

#10 can. 

[Seek]

Thanks. I've got some experimentation to do. That'll be next weekend though.

[Frosty]

It's a fire management issue it's just too easy to put too much air to a fire. A nice dome of breeze is a super efficient oven there's no need to have flame showing at all.

When we can get good coal and I'm the one running the fire I coke up a bucket at the beginning of the day and just use the breeze. I go through a lot less coal than the guys using green coal fire management and I'm not breathing any smoke. Sure coking up a bucket tends to leave yellow clouds wafting around my forge for a few minutes but it's over and done with quick.

I really like breeze it's my favorite solid fuel.

Frosty The Lucky

Edited October 5, 2015 by Frosty

[j.morse]

 Ok, I am very new to forging, and I have a question concerning coal and coke. I usually start my forge by first tossing a big double fistful of homemade oak charcoal in the pot, butane torching the stuff in 3-4 spots as the blower is making it all glow.........then after the charcoal is glowing good I add coke to the pot and turn up the blower until the firepot is really going great. Then I add whatever  metal I want to beat on. My question is this....why use coal at all when the coke is the goal? It is the same price where I buy it and I guess as a newbie I can see no advantage to using coal at all.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, J.M.

Yes, You can cheat and use a torch. or You can roll up a wad of newspaper, add a little bit of kindling, add a little bit of the left over "last Fire".

Bing Bang, smokin' the whole Thang, keep the blow VERY low (gentle). Fire is going.

Coal burns the inpurities out and leaves Coke, that we use for Heat. If Coal and Coke is the same price, buy the Coke.

Neil

[dickb]

I am assuming you are referring to smithing coal, not anthracite.
I usually use smithing coal, nut sized bituminous coal because it is available around here, On a few occasions I have used commercial coke.  Coal leaves a lot more clinkers and ash than coke, Converting raw coal to coke in your forge throws off a lot of smoke and stink . All that smoke and impurities is money going up the chimney,  You paid for it but It doesn't heat the iron. With coke all the heat stays right where you want it, in the firepot.   I have also used anthracite in the forge, It burns, but it doesn't coke up ( fuse together into lumps) like  bituminous coal,  It just lays there like hot gravel   The only negative thing about coke is that it's harder to start. I once heard a blacksmith say he could start the forge fire with a greasy rag. I tried this and it actually worked with smithing coal.

The bottom line is coke has a lot of advantages over coal . Buy a bag of each and compare them .

As a matter of curiosity, how much does coal or coke cost where you live.  Around here it costs about twelve dollars for a forty pound bag.

I live in Rockland County, New York

[j.morse]

Being  a newcomer to this forging deal, I simply went on line and bought the coke from Centaur Forge. With shipping it is slightly less than a buck a pound. Where can I save money? $12 a 40 lb. bag would be fantastic.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, J.M.

If you want a break on the Price, you buy by Volume. We buy 40 Tonne of Coal at a time, from the Mine.

When you buy by the Bag, you are paying for handling a bunch of times.

Neil

[j.morse]

Thanks for the reply.  I live a couple state away from the closest coal mine!

[Frosty]

Call a local farrier supply or farrier, (Horse shoer) they'll know where you can get good smithing coal. Not all the modern farriers use gas forges.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Solano]

I have gotten coal from this place before. Very good bituminous coal, it was around $300 a ton as I recall. 

Thompson Bros Mining Co
Street: 3379 East Garfield Road
North Lima, oh 44452-
Phone: (330) 549-3979

 

But why not try L-Brand coke? Look them up online. I get it from a farriers supply in Amarillo TX, as I live just an hour west of there. I am moving to norther MI as soon as I sell my place, maybe a few of us can get together and get a ton ?? There are a few blacksmiths around your area that you might contact.

Vince

[George Geist]

Try these guys:

http://www.penncoal.com/default.php

They'll ship anywhere

[tamann]

I'm brand new to forging. I get anthracite coal 6 dollars 50 lbs. I use a shop vac for a blower. I have a pile burning in the center and a ring of coal around the pile. the pile is where I put the work. I push it into the pile turn on the blower and I get the steel on the verge of melting in less than you would think , maybe 2 minutes, I do not know if this is the right way but it is what I'm doing no cave though. The coal is black pea when I start turns grey and seems to be played. I do not know when or if I get coke out of all this but I'm told I have enough heat to weld though I'm not there yet . Any comments might be helpful, Thanks

[JHCC]

2 hours ago, tamann said:

I'm brand new to forging. I get anthracite coal 6 dollars 50 lbs. I use a shop vac for a blower. I have a pile burning in the center and a ring of coal around the pile. the pile is where I put the work. I push it into the pile turn on the blower and I get the steel on the verge of melting in less than you would think , maybe 2 minutes, I do not know if this is the right way but it is what I'm doing no cave though. The coal is black pea when I start turns grey and seems to be played. I do not know when or if I get coke out of all this but I'm told I have enough heat to weld though I'm not there yet . Any comments might be helpful, Thanks

tamann, welcome to the forum. Couple of things: first, please add your location in your profile settings. A lot of information is region-specific, and you might also be able to connect with other forum members in your area. Second, you'll find that almost every question you can think of has been asked and answered already, sometimes many times over. Take some time to search the various categories, subcategories, and threads before asking a question; if you can't find an answer that way, at least you'll know more and will be able to ask more informed questions.

That said, a shop blower puts out too much air for most kinds of forging. If you have some way to regulate the airflow (a gate valve or even aiming the vac hose partially past your air intake), you'll have a lot more success. (This is me speaking as someone who used a shop vac to blast an anthracite forge for quite a while, so I'm speaking from experience!)