Can I heat treat this? (with video)

[SoleSoul]

Hi,

I really want to start working with metal, the goal is bladesmithing, and I'm trying to get all the tools. Anvil is the next one.

My uncle was kind enough to get two blocks of metal for me to use as an anvil, but they are soft. I know they are soft because I banged a metal bar with a hammer over them and blows left dents in the blocks. I'm trying to understand whether I can harden them and I'll have an anvil, or I can't.

The only method I know of to answer this question apart from trying to heat treat them is doing a spark test. Heat treating will be troublesome here so I want to be sure that it has a chance of working before I do it.

The tool I have for doing the test is a Dremel with a small cutoff wheel which is abrasive.

Here is the video I took: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j38gc_i84Js

I would be glad to hear what you think about all the four but I'm mostly interested in the square and circle blocks. What do you think? Can any of them be used as an anvil?

Thanks!

Edit: This allows watching the video frame by frame: http://rowvid.com/?v=j38gc_i84Js

Edited August 18, 2015 by SoleSoul

[Bubbasan]

Looks to me like high carbon steel , I am sure it can be hardened and tempered . The way it was sparking kind of looks like 1080 or better .The disc brake may be some weird alloy

with some nickel  to take the heat.  Cut a small piece off each piece send it to lab . Then you will know for sure . Helps with HT and tempering.  As far as anvil I don't see why not ?

May need to be hardened a bit if you are leaving dents in it with hammer . I am sure some other smith will chime in . I used a piece of wide gauge RR track for a few years before I bought a couple good anvils......     Good luck  .....   James

[Ethan Paul Dobbins]

The rod you sparked looked like high carbon, but the first block looked relatively low in carbon.  brake rotors like that are usually cast iron, and it could make a good fire pot for smaller work. The round block looked to be a little higher in carbon than the first block, but i don't usually do spark tests with a dremel. The speed and type of grinding wheel you use can change your spark test a little, But I would say you could get some hardness out of the blocks if you heated them to non magnetic and sprayed them down with a hose, and maybe dump a bucket or two of water on them.  You'll need a lot of coal or gas to get them that hot though, so you might be ahead to just use the bigger one as an anvil as is. hot metal is a Lot softer than even cold mild steel, so you should be able to forge on that larger block for a while.

 

[cliffrat]

First of all you should know that you go to the devil's lair when you die if you've been hammering cold steel on your anvil. Try to avoid hammering cold steel on any anvil, ever.  The brake disc is probably not hardenable. I tried using one in a metal sculpture and found that it wouldn't even weld to mild steel with a MIG. The big square & round blocks are  a decent size and may be hardenable. You could try following Ethan's directions and see what you get. You will need a way to temper it back some or you will risk cracking it, if it does harden. Proper tempering requires you to know what the steel is, and you don't, so maybe your best bet is to find some good tool steel plate and "skin" the top of the round or square block the way a lot of anvils are skinned with a plate of tool steel over a softer base. Check the anvil forum and do some reading. You may find some ideas about how to go about making and anvil. If you really want to get into blade-smithing, you wouldn't need anything too big to start with. Do an internet search for anvils or black smith tools. You will find several companies that sell anvil stakes or stumps (small anvils) that you pound into a tree stump or log for not much money.

[Charlotte]

Just as  thought:  when I've looked at break drums and brake rotors being machined it looks to me like they are gray cast iron in composition.  I say this as a person that spent some time cleaning production lathes  that shaped every thing from cast iron to high alloy stainless.

[Bo T]

My first anvil is an 8# sledge head set in concrete. Knowing what I do now I would have skipped that step and moved directly to a good anvil. It works, but not as well as a better anvil. You can work on a flat piece of steel, but the bottom hardy is a useful tool and it needs a hardy hole. The money you spend now on a good used anvil has a good chance of being returned if you sell it (as long as you don't ruin the anvil). Just imo.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Bo T

[MarkDobson]

i dont see why you couldnt use either of those as an anvil as is until you find an anvil or other more suitable object. personally id use the rectangular one standing up so as much mass is under the hammer as possible. as for the brake rotor, depending on the size it could be used as a small firepot for a coal forge or maybe the base for some sort of stand. as others have mentioned i also havnt had very good luck welding to them so i would use the existing bolt holes if you were going to use it for something

if your main goal is to make blades you probably dont need a "real" anvil,  a post anvil made from 4x4 stock would work just fine for blades(at least this is what ive seen a lot of bladesmiths use).

[SoleSoul]

 Hi all and thanks for the answers. I appreciate it.

Looks to me like high carbon steel , I am sure it can be hardened and tempered . The way it was sparking kind of looks like 1080 or better .The disc brake may be some weird alloy

with some nickel  to take the heat.  Cut a small piece off each piece send it to lab . Then you will know for sure . Helps with HT and tempering.  As far as anvil I don't see why not ?

May need to be hardened a bit if you are leaving dents in it with hammer . I am sure some other smith will chime in . I used a piece of wide gauge RR track for a few years before I bought a couple good anvils......     Good luck  .....   James

Thank you James. I wasn't sure it's a good steel since I tried to scratch it with a cheap folding knife and I could. I'll see if I have the means to harden it here.

The rod you sparked looked like high carbon, but the first block looked relatively low in carbon.  brake rotors like that are usually cast iron, and it could make a good fire pot for smaller work. The round block looked to be a little higher in carbon than the first block, but i don't usually do spark tests with a dremel. The speed and type of grinding wheel you use can change your spark test a little, But I would say you could get some hardness out of the blocks if you heated them to non magnetic and sprayed them down with a hose, and maybe dump a bucket or two of water on them.  You'll need a lot of coal or gas to get them that hot though, so you might be ahead to just use the bigger one as an anvil as is. hot metal is a Lot softer than even cold mild steel, so you should be able to forge on that larger block for a while.

 

The rod is a surprise. I found it near a road I was walking by and since I could scratch it with a knife I thought it's iron. The knife test is probably bad. Every unhardened steel will be scratched.

About the disc, I was planning on using it a the base of my first forge. I wanted to make sure I'm not wasting high carbon steel.

I'll try the big block with hot steel.

First of all you should know that you go to the devil's lair when you die if you've been hammering cold steel on your anvil. Try to avoid hammering cold steel on any anvil, ever.  The brake disc is probably not hardenable. I tried using one in a metal sculpture and found that it wouldn't even weld to mild steel with a MIG. The big square & round blocks are  a decent size and may be hardenable. You could try following Ethan's directions and see what you get. You will need a way to temper it back some or you will risk cracking it, if it does harden. Proper tempering requires you to know what the steel is, and you don't, so maybe your best bet is to find some good tool steel plate and "skin" the top of the round or square block the way a lot of anvils are skinned with a plate of tool steel over a softer base. Check the anvil forum and do some reading. You may find some ideas about how to go about making and anvil. If you really want to get into blade-smithing, you wouldn't need anything too big to start with. Do an internet search for anvils or black smith tools. You will find several companies that sell anvil stakes or stumps (small anvils) that you pound into a tree stump or log for not much money.

Haha, nicely said. I was hammering the rod from the video on the blocks, cold. I thought it's 'soft' iron so I thought I'd use it as a test to see if the blocks are hard enough, and they dented, hence they are not hard enough. Now I see that I was wrong. Thanks for the scolding

I'll keep in mind the need to temper it afterwards, and I'll look into attaching another steel to the top. Thank you.

Just as  thought:  when I've looked at break drums and brake rotors being machined it looks to me like they are gray cast iron in composition.  I say this as a person that spent some time cleaning production lathes  that shaped every thing from cast iron to high alloy stainless.

If it's grey cast iron it means that it's suitable for the forge, right? good.

My first anvil is an 8# sledge head set in concrete. Knowing what I do now I would have skipped that step and moved directly to a good anvil. It works, but not as well as a better anvil. You can work on a flat piece of steel, but the bottom hardy is a useful tool and it needs a hardy hole. The money you spend now on a good used anvil has a good chance of being returned if you sell it (as long as you don't ruin the anvil). Just imo.

I agree with you. When I'll by an anvil I'll look into a good one. For now I'm trying to grow with the tools I have since my knowledge is little.

i dont see why you couldnt use either of those as an anvil as is until you find an anvil or other more suitable object. personally id use the rectangular one standing up so as much mass is under the hammer as possible. as for the brake rotor, depending on the size it could be used as a small firepot for a coal forge or maybe the base for some sort of stand. as others have mentioned i also havnt had very good luck welding to them so i would use the existing bolt holes if you were going to use it for something

if your main goal is to make blades you probably dont need a "real" anvil,  a post anvil made from 4x4 stock would work just fine for blades(at least this is what ive seen a lot of bladesmiths use).

The standing up rectangular block idea is interesting. I haven't thought about that. I'll sure try it. Thanks!

I was thinking the same about the brake and the holes will be used to let the air from the blower in. That's the plan, at least.

I wasn't familiar with 'post anvils' and searching for it brings up blocks that look very much like the round piece I have. This is very interesting and I'll look into it.

 

Thank you everyone. I'll go do some experiments and learning and try heating my first metal work. Wish me luck

 

[Bo T]

One bladesmith uses iirc a 4"x4" cutoff set in concrete. I think it is 4140 and has some length to it. He set it on end and put a different radius on each edge. I think he also set it higher than his regular anvil due to the type of work he was using it for. Heat treating a large piece of steel like this involves quite a bit of work but is certainly doable.  Good Luck.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Bo T

[zombieresponder]

Just about any steel can be at least surface hardened/case hardened. Here's a product to do just that. http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/77470417  I also found some links to topics about making your own version of it. There are also pre heat treated steels available. We work with PHT 4140 regularly at work, though at 28-32 HRC, it's probably not hard enough for an anvil.

[Anthony San Miguel]

Just about any steel can be at least surface hardened/case hardened. Here's a product to do just that. http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/77470417  I also found some links to topics about making your own version of it. There are also pre heat treated steels available. We work with PHT 4140 regularly at work, though at 28-32 HRC, it's probably not hard enough for an anvil.

If you can get a large enough chunk of 4140 and have the means to harden one side of it it will make a great anvil to beat on. It's one of the best steels to use for that purpose. If I worked at a place that used 4140 I'd be stocking up on all the scrap I could get. Also excellent for hammers and other tooling.

[zombieresponder]

Why would I "stock up" when I have the keys and the alarm code? If I need to make something, I go do it.

[Anthony San Miguel]

Lucky guy!

[evfreek]

Sparks from blocks do not look like high carbon.  Disk might be med carbon.

[SoleSoul]

Sparks from blocks do not look like high carbon.  Disk might be med carbon.

Thanks, but I'm not experienced enough to understand the implications of this.

You mean to say that the blocks are low on carbon or medium? Is it called mild steel? Can it be hardened to some extent? Is it suitable for use as an anvil?

[Charlotte]

These days an unknown steel can be many things only a few of them qualify as low carbon steel in the traditional sense.  There are alloy steels that low in carbon and miserable to use at the anvil.  The only way to really tell if you can use it is to cut off a piece and try it.

[evfreek]

Anything will do if it is steel and heavy.  The medium carbon is hardenable.  You can slice off a piece to give you a straight edge which you will need anyway. How big is the round?

[SoleSoul]

Anything will do if it is steel and heavy.  The medium carbon is hardenable.  You can slice off a piece to give you a straight edge which you will need anyway. How big is the round?

It's ~14Kg. It's not near me at the moment but I'll estimate it as ~15cm in diameter.

[SoleSoul]

Thank you everyone for your help.

I'm using the big round block as is (only with hot metal ) and it performs well. It doesn't dent and it has some 'ting' sound to it so I guess it returns some energy as desired.

With experience I'll learn whether I should look into surface hardening it or not.