monstermetal

Quick and Dirty Forging press's comming soon.

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So as some of you know I have built quite a number of forging presses.   Probably close to 20 now.    The last two I built went to a ABS Master smith (Dave Lisch) and a ABS Journeyman smith (Mareko Maumasi)   Both of those have incorporated everything I have learned over the last decade building presses and I think are pretty skookum (as good as they could be for the money they where willing to spend)     The problem with those custom presses is they are expensive.   A pro press like I built those guys is a $8-$10,000 machine and I really dont make much.  The pump alone is close to four grand, by the time you buy the rest of the hardware im lucky to have $1500-$2000 in labor.    Even at that $8-$10 grand range you are making some pretty big sacrifices (more on that later)

 

Soooo......    Long story short.    Most folks cant or wont spend $10,000 on a forging press.       I want to come up with a machine that I can mass produce, have the best performance of anything in its price range and be affordable enough that its within reach of serious smiths.

The presses that are currently available (Uncle Al's and  Ron Claiborne's) leave a lot to be desired.    Both are H frames which are cheaper to build but limit tooling and functionality.   Both are well built and reasonably priced but not what I would want in a press.

 

I want to build a open C frame, which means it will be heavier and bigger to match the same tonnage, but in my opinion a much better press for general forging.    The problem is its going to cost more, there is no way around it.   At a minimum it will be $500-$1000 more than Ron's or Al's press.

 

So that leads me to the first question.   Is $4500 outside the scope of what you would spend?    Really when talking about a machine of this caliber its not a lot of money, however I recognize that its a big investment for most.    Maybe a better question would be would you spend an extra $1000 for a C frame press over the H frames that are already available ?

 

Next question is what would YOU want in a press.    I have some real strong ideas about what the "ideal" forging press is,   What I consider ideal is well outside the scope of what 99% of blacksmiths could deal with.     Everybody gets hung up on tonnage, however when you are forging tonnage is not the most important.   tonnage without speed is very inefficient yet just about everyone building a press will sacrifice speed for tonnage.   The more presses I build the more I realize that a 15 ton press moving the right speed is a far better forging machine than a 50 or even 100 ton press that is slow.    Almost every forging press I see is too slow, the problem is speed costs money.    I have a personal press I want to build that I have gathered the parts up for.  It will use a 6" cylinder and a 30 HP hydraulic pump.  For a 6" 2500PSI cylinder using a single stage pump 30 HP is really a minimum to get the speed you need to be a efficient and effective forging press, 50 HP would be better.    30 HP will get me 20 GPM fixed displacement so around 2.7 IPS or 162 inches per minute.   This may sound fast but super slow by forging press standards.   50 HP would get me about 280 IPM.    Most commercial forging presses are that at a minimum for extend and retract speeds and some are as fast as 600-800 IPM (most kick down when they encounter resistance to 50-75 IPM but they also have huge tonnage to back them up)

 

Basically that big long explanation is to say that I will probably build a 10-15 ton press that is going to cost more than the other guys 30 ton presses.  I know most folks will think "Why would I spend more money on a smaller machine?"   Well because my 15 ton press will be a C frame, more rigid and will do twice the forging of their 30 ton press.   I know there will be those stuck on the number though and only see "15 ton"

 

So give me some feedback.    What features and options do you want/need/willing to pay for?    What is the most important thing to you?    What can I do to get you to send me money? :-)

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Hi Monster - One of my friends has Foot Peddle control on his press so both hands free for tooling 

someday I will re-plume my press that way & install steel line's for saftey I am right next to Hyd  lines 

wile using it if a hose blows I am standing in a Bad spot

press is H frame 65 ton - 2 stage pump ram runs down quick second stage kicks in for power

I helped build this press in 85 ish Ive press A LOT of things on it over the years @ Dons shop No hot work back then but now LOTS of hot work art stuff :D

when Don passed I got it back home where it belongs :wub: now just have to start making tooling for it 

** ?? SO how do you keep / lock youre tooling to the ram ? or do you  

I will take a pic of press & tool holder  today & post later hopefully

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I think there will be those who will only look for the biggest number and the lowest price, not the performance of the machine. Big Blu vs. Iron Kiss comes to mind. 1k extra for a superior machine is not much spread out over its working (earning) life.

If you make a series of videos explaining and demonstrating the advantages of this press over the competitors presses it would go a long way to convincing people that your press is the way to go. As John Larson did  with his Iron Kiss hammers.

I am building myself a press right now. It is a C-frame press, 12ton/ 2IPS / 11/3GPM 5HP pump. I'm using a 3HP motor instead of a 5HP. When I find a 5HP motor the press will generate 16ton/3IPM.

I have gone for speed over tonnage because I want to use the press primarily for punching eyes and I read what Owen Bush had the say on the subject. I'm sure others will too once they see you demonstrate it with your press.

 

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This is simply an observation on the economics side - but a 20 ton, electric log splitter can be had for about $2000 new.  Obviously, converting to a forging press would require some extra effort and cost but my instinct is that you would have to keep it around $3000 to have widespread appeal.  I'm not suggesting you build it for that and lose money, only that the price point may be lower than $4500.  I have found in the past that people will say, "Oh yes, I would absolutely pay that!" until you bring it out - then they disappear like the morning dew...I've done some small runs of different items and it's surprising how many folks suddenly have money problems when the product is finished and ready to sell.  I'm not trying to discourage your endeavor but I think it's going to be difficult to create a business plan without actually building some and seeing whether they move quickly.

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Yeah,  I agree.    I cant compete with a  20 ton electric log spliter,  But really I shouldn't have to as it would make a lousy forging press.

 

It may not make the most business sense but I would rather build and sell fewer better performing presses than to built what everyone else already builds.

 

This is Mareko's press,  Its not as fast as I would like but its as fast as I could get it and keep it a single stage single phase pump (10 HP @ 8 GPM.)   You can see the machined 4140 die holders.    Also notice how smooth and tight everything is.   Also this is a single stage machine so it does not slow down right when you need the speed the most.

marko2.mp4

Here is another shot of his 20 ton press forging some 2" x 4" flat bar.   You will notice how massive the guides are and that they are adjustable.     

marko.mp4

Edited by monstermetal

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What kind of power is needed to operate such a press?  What is the approximate weight likely to be?  How much room is needed for minimal operational area?  

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Larry: The 20 ton single phase Marko looks to be a sweet machine and certainly moves more metal faster than my 50lb. LG. If I spent enough time in the shop as I used to something like that would be my choice over my LG in a heart beat.

My LG was in good working order when I bought it and the only thing I've done is clean it paint it and make bolt on dies.  I paid $7,000 here in Alaska where shipping is steep. For the performance I see in the second video I'd surely pay more plus shipping. Provided I can get away with single phase.

A C frame would be my preference as well. Even pressing bearings or straightening shafts H frames have always been in the way.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I got the dreaded "forbidden" response so will comment in a new thread...

That is a good design - lots of squeeze - and as you noted, fast and smooth.  I also agree with the C-frame for easy access - there is nothing fun about trying to punch a hole in the center of a 10 foot bar and having to run in and out of an H-frame.  Only thing I might want to see is a couple inches more daylight, if not prohibitive to make.  More headroom is usually always better than less.

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Larry,

We have kicked several ideas around between us in the past but I think your biggest hurdle is going to be peoples available power. I don't know how to get the flow rates you need without 480 volt 3 phase power. It seems like this will significantly limit your market to the larger industrial folks. Maybe that is your target anyway?

 

Brian

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Hi Larry, good to chat at the swap meet and glad to hear the summer's treating you well.  (You didn't have to start this thread just to prove to me you're working on these...)

Personally, I'm much more interested in speed than power, as most of what I want to do is Damascus billets, and would also want an up/down foot pedal.

 

 

PS - pm sent

Edited by billyO

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Looks like a sweet press.  I would expect no less from Larry.  However, I am completely and totally puzzled by the fact that it has a hand lever (and so many other presses do as well,WTF?)  Why do so many guys build or buy presses that can't be operated if you have both hands on the work?  Safety? 

I'd never buy a single man power hammer that I had to run with one hand.  Why are presses different?

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I would really like to have a great forging hydraulic press.  Unfortunately being short of money, I tend to build what I can afford with parts that I can afford. 

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the speed in that video is really impressive.you are really changing my mind on a press. 

I have to imagine that the sweet spot for sales has to favor a smaller unit as you could move many more at $3500.00 than you could at $6500-$8000 simply because there are vastly more of us small shop/ hobbyist/ enthusiast guys than commercial shops. and if you also had bigger models then when we were ready to go big we would know already that your speed message was right.   

I also know that a C frame would be nice but as a hobbyist I would put up with an H frame to keep my initial investment down and it would give me impetus to upgrade someday so you would have made two sales, not just one.

just my two cents. 

 

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Looks like a sweet press.  I would expect no less from Larry.  However, I am completely and totally puzzled by the fact that it has a hand lever (and so many other presses do as well,WTF?)  Why do so many guys build or buy presses that can't be operated if you have both hands on the work?  Safety? 

I'd never buy a single man power hammer that I had to run with one hand.  Why are presses different?

 

My last personal press I had both a foot and hand control and found that the vast majority of the time it was easier to use the hand control that it was the foot pedal.   for some things it is really nice to have both hands to move the work though.       It gets to be problematic with a manual valve,  You can make a linkage to run the thing by foot but its stuck in one spot unless you get real tricky and have a cable linkage system which  becomes temperamental.      If you use a solenoid valve an electric foot switch is pretty easy however you loose a lot of feel with an electric valve.

 

No matter what you do its a trade off.

What kind of power is needed to operate such a press?  What is the approximate weight likely to be?  How much room is needed for minimal operational area?  

Mareko's press is a 10 hp single phase pump which is as big as you can get in a economical single phase motor.   You can get bigger ones but they get super pricey    Even this power pack was close to 4 grand though.    I would guess his press weighs 2 ton?   Its at the large end of what a small press would be though.   As far as a foot print its maybe 3 feet square

Edited by monstermetal

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My control valve is a center "off" style so the foot linkage was an easy build(of course it was a down and dirty fabrication due to the fact I needed a foot control one day so I whipped it up and both hand and foot controls work great - they are all linked together so you get to choose how you want to control it. I'll try to get a couple pics and post them.

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Yeah,   linkages give you options.   This is a poor video but shows how we set it up for controls on either side,   Pretty easy to add a foot control like this as well.  Still it is stuck in one spot.    Its nice to have an electric pedal on a cord you can move around, but then you lose a lot of the feel of the manual valve.

IMG_6175.MOV

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4K for a pump? Must be a high eff oilgear like on your White press? Those are rather good units.

 

I agree with you Larry....nice to have speed and tonnage, but most do not have the electricity for larger motors.

I'm setting up a 75hp 3kpsi system to run the 12" cylinders I have here.....that still only yields 1" per second though........it would make a 6" diam. cylinder go 4" second.......which may make me soil my pants (and make a spike in the system without a way to dampen the oil cavitation).

 

Ric

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Ric its 4 grand for the complete hydraulic unit, not just the pump.  However you could not buy an Oilgear like the one on my big press for 4 grand, they are more like $12,000

 

Even if you have buckets of money and all the power you could ever use there still will be sacrifices.      I think the key is to get the most out of what your average shop can support.

 

I plan on sticking with a 5 HP single phase system for the production presses.   Its not what I would like to use but think its the best compromise for cost and performance.

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Okay you have me pondering, the exploration drills I used to run, repair and modify are more hydraulic than mechanical so pondering hydraulics is pretty ingrained.

Have you looked into the type gear pumps found on trucks and such rigs? Our drill pumps bypassed at 2,500psi but produced enough volume RESTRICTED to run the draw works up at a good 18"/sec+. And pressing down they'd lift the back of the drill off the ground and hardly twitch the gauge. There were times pulling casing we'd have every lift cylinder available pulling, draw works, leveling jacks and the casing jack. The pump never starved the system.

Heck due to the conditions occasionally a bit of crud would get past the filters and block a port. On one memorable occasion the bypass stuck open and when the driller bottomed a cylinder on the slide base it blew a 10,000psi hose but only AFTER he stalled the 453 Detroit diesel running it TWICE!

I realize you actually KNOW the application you're talking about but nothing you've talked about is hard to get with hydraulics. Speed and tonnage is volume and pressure. Enough volume and ram surface=tonnage at speed.

Why a 2 stage pump? Can you increase the pressure to the cylinders with a pressure actuated bypass? Spin a high pressure pump faster and it makes more volume. Push a high volume pump harder and it makes more pressure. The general safety rule of thumb is spin the pressure pump faster, they can take more abuse.

An adjustable bypass allows high volume till it hits resistance then it starts closing increasing pressure till the MASTER/PRIMARY bypass opens or something stalls or blows.

Just wondering, Frosty The Lucky.

 

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The xpress forging press was a C frame and everyone loved it. Its no longer made and I think it sold for about 5K..

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The forbiden deamon hates me

a detroit L452 is a two cycle suoercharged desil with 52CI per cilender

your car is a 4 cycle motor, that is it fires every cylender once in two rotations of the crank shaft.

that is a 208ci 4 cylender with v8 power. Imagine what a V81692 is like! 4 turbos and two superchargers!

Edited by Charles R. Stevens

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Monstermetal: I saw Mareko on Forged in Fire last night. Was the press he used in his shop the one you mentioned above?

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I've long been planning a press build as I wanted a C-Frame more robust than what was available, but now that you are in the game Larry, I think I shall yield to you.  If you are selling in the $4,500-5,000 range I would be handing you money. 

 

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