Advice on forging a hardy cutoff

[sirsparky1807]

Agreed on all points Mr. Stevens after catching the local blacksmith in town , and we talked found the problems besides the steal . Was that needed to upset it more for more  to fit on the anvil it self not just the hardy , the first go at it now to get some good steal and make another one .

[Charles R. Stevens]

It's called "learning curve" lol your starting the climb,

[Frosty]

I'm with Charles, the bevel is more cold cut obtuse, a hot cut needs to be more acute, axe vs. maul is a good comparison.

I'd clean up the corners on the shank too the less texture on the shank the less likely it'll jam in the hardy hole. Also the less likely it'll make cuts which can turn into cold shuts weakening the anvil through the hardy hole. A smooth clean shank is IMHO important on bottom tools.

It's a good first attempt. Next time try drawing the blade down over the horn. It'll forge faster and give you the slightly concave bevel that's a signature of good hot hardies. Just remember the actual final or cutting bevel needs to be slightly convex. The physics of why convex is superior for heavy cutting than straight or concave is involved but once you see the pics it's pretty obvious.

Again, good start on tool making. move up to spring, torsion bar or such and you're off and runnng.

Frosty The Lucky.

[sirsparky1807]

Thanks for the input and advice Mr. Stevens and Frosty , a little worried about driving it into the hardy hole . This anvil is a 55 pounder from harbor freight , bought it because of the wider face and hardy hole . Trying my best to find a good one here in Texas that doesn't cost as much as I can buy a new one for from Centrum forge . Might go back to my railroad track after I find a piece of good one inch plate to weld on top and garden with hardy and prickle hole . But time to try again thanks again for your advice and patients . 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Don't weld a plate on to your rail, thats going backwards! Find a peice of heavy wall square tubing that a 1" square will fit in, use that with a collar to form a hardy stake to mount your hardies on, think class 1 reciver hitch. 

 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Charles R. Stevens

[DSW]

Don't weld a plate on to your rail, thats going backwards! Find a peice of heavy wall square tubing that a 1" square will fit in, use that with a collar to form a hardy stake to mount your hardies on, think class 1 reciver hitch. 

Or take that 1" plate and weld it to the top of some heavy 4" square tube and add a base so you have a striking hardy or hardy block like this. I made this one to show some kids that you don't have to have a traditional "anvil" to have a hardy hole available.

 

 

[sirsparky1807]

Out of the box never thought of that it's great , my rail is better than the other just doesn't have the width . I should say to me plus I'm  more at home with the feel and ring , time to go back to the start . Thank both of you for the advice . 

[Frosty]

Nothing wrong with a rail anvil, wide faces and horns are over rated. Seriously overrated.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Quarry Dog]

Locking fuller?!?  That sounds very interesting.  Is there a thread detailing what exactly that is? I can't find anything in search or google.

Sorry bout that.  Didn't realize this had rolled over to page 2.  That last comment was in reply to Charles.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I mis spoke, locking hot cut, he talers the shank like a pexo tool shank, it holds the hot cut firm, but not recomended for tools that are realy wailed on. A bolt from the bottom or a long shank with a tennon and wedge are the answer for other anvil tools that need held fast

[Quarry Dog]

OK, gotcha.  I was thinking that their was some nifty mystery magic fuller that didn't let your work bounce around everywhere when you hit it...like a smithin' magician/blacksmith helper but better.

[Frosty]

OK, gotcha.  I was thinking that their was some nifty mystery magic fuller that didn't let your work bounce around everywhere when you hit it...like a smithin' magician/blacksmith helper but better.

Don't I wish! 

Frosty The Lucky.

[sirsparky1807]

Ok a repeat from beginners question , went to the welder's today dropped off drawing for the hardy block and what material I had for it . When I was leaving he threw me a piece of round stock that came off a large electric motor he said and that it will work for what I am wanting to build . Still heading to the scrap yard to see what I can find , the question is can I use it for smithing is it good metal to use for tools ? 

[Frosty]

Might be, might not. Somewhere on IFI there's a list of practical tests you can run in the shop to get a handle on it's working properties.

A spark test is a decent place to start. Earlier when I asked what the sparks looked like I meant a detailed description of the sparks. Search the site there are threads discussing reading sparks and heck there might even be a chart. Different steels and carbon contents will have different sparks. You can't actually identify mystery steel but you can get an idea of some of it's properties. Old timers used to be able to identify a steel pretty precisely but there were a whole lot fewer alloys and now they probably introduce a few dozen a day.

Anyway, spark test it on a grinder and pay close attention to the sparks: Color, length, number, sparklers, how many how far, etc.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Having some "standards" to test against helps:  Wrought iron, cast iron, 1020, 4140, 5160, File (axle, leaf spring, file) and you can compare the number, colour and burstiness of those against your own piece pushed the same amount against your own grinder.  Scrap can sometimes surprise you greatly; I've run into old farm equipment with a wrought iron brace on one side and a HIGH carbon steel on on the other...I will admit that I tend to test against standards only when something isn't working like I would expect.  Though I do try to do a tirage when a big load from the scrap yard comes in to separate wrought iron from mild from high carbon

[sirsparky1807]

Will do Frosty ill compare it to the other steel that I have now , I've got rasp , shoes ,  rail spikes , mower blades , rebar , and some flat stock . I'm still looking for the right stuff to make the cutoffs and other tools with , ill keep looking and scrapping if all else fails will buy what I need . Waiting on the hardy block to get finished being made and traded out for hope to get it next week , just cant wait to get started back on the hardy again and make it right this time .

[Charles R. Stevens]

Leaf and coil spring are a good place to start, mobile homes are a good place to start.

[ThomasPowers]

Car/truck axle and broken jackhammer bits should work fine and be available in your area---for the jackhammer bits call up tool rental places and ask!  For the Axle ask local mechanics.  Trying to force your materials to do something they are not suited for is a massive waste of time and energy.  Sort of "I spent an extra 4 hours to get a low grade product rather than spend 1 hour hunting the right stuff to make a good one"  situation.

[Charles R. Stevens]

As TP points out, truck axles are the go to salvage stock for such things, but on the "tools to build tools" road, a peice of leaf spring forged to fit the hardy hole diagganaly will cut the axle and a coil spring, straitened will make the spring fuller to block out and help draw out your heavy duty hot cut

[LastRonin]

In case it is not a typo for triage... what is a tirage? Surprisingly from me, this is not being asked as a smarty pants joke.

[Frosty]

In case it is not a typo for triage... what is a tirage? Surprisingly from me, this is not being asked as a smarty pants joke.

I read it as triage.

Of course that's just me, I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.

[SmoothBore]

" what is a tirage ?"

------------------------------------------------------------

"Tirage"

1.  the withdrawing of wine from a barrel, as for testing or tasting.

2.  a drawing, as in a lottery.

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Tirage, ... or Triage, ... seems to work either way. 

 

Especially if there's a "Tun" of scrap to sort.

 

 

I'm sure there's a tongue-in-cheek way to insert "Butt", "Pipe" and "Hogshead" into this post, ... but enough's enough.

 

.

[LastRonin]

I was asking seriously. Because I know that there are lots of words and phrases I haven't learned yet. 

But I do enjoy the punnery.

[Frosty]

You're a barrel of fun Smoothbore.

Triage is a preliminary sorting process, especially useful for large quantities of things. For instance a quick sort of scrap for Steel, Aluminum, cast iron. Toss pieces by type in one of three piles and it's been triaged. A loader moves the cast iron to one rail car and the aluminum to another while you toss select pieces from the steel pile in your pickup.

The first fast unfussy sort is the triage. The scrap company doesn't have all day for you to go through the whole pile piece by piece but will let you do a hasty sort. You get to choose some of the choice steel scrap while they get the aluminum, cast iron and steel separated for them. It doesn't have to be perfect just fast.

Triage is also important in hospitals with mass casualties, say a commuter train wreck: #1 people who need immediate care but can be saved. #2 people who can wait. #3 people who aren't going to make it. It lets medical personnel concentrate their energies where it counts most most.

Frosty The Lucky.

[gote]

It has been pointed out in another thread but square tubes are quite useful in the hardy hole. I recently used it on a ( bought) hotcut that was very loose and waggling in my hardy hole. The anvil is old and the hardy hole is not quite square and slightly tapering. I took a piece of square steel tube, heated it and hammered it down into the hole. When it cooled down it was easy to get out. I cut it just below where the anvil face had been. I then ground the hardy shank down until it wedged into the tube.

Result: the hardy sits squarely on the anvil so the force is transmitted to the anvil surface. The shank does not jam in the hole but the play in the edge is less than half a millimeter. However, since the hole is not perfectly square it can only go down in one direction.

I did not need to worry about heat threating an unknown steel. My anvil is not London pattern so the hardy hole is very long and the risk of splitting the anvil is nil. I think that this is a safe method also for a London pattern anvil since the tube deforms easily.

A thought: If the shank fits very well in the hole it should not need to be very long. It should be possible to (stick-) weld inside the tube to fit a tube-shank to a fuller or whatever that is flat on the underside. For someone who does not have a power hammer nor a big spring fuller nor a helper this seems to be a workable way.

Comments please

Göte