Cutler's Hammer Face: Hardened or Normalized?

[forgeaway]

Hello Gents,

I'm in the process of making a 2.5# "Japanese cutlers hammer" (dog face hammer).  I saw a post recently that some smiths how make these hammers offer them in "fully Normalized" or Hardened.   So it begs the question:  why would you want Normalized over Hardened? or vise versa.  Also, if your going for a hardened face, how hard do you want it?

Thanks, I'll be using this hammering bevels on small -medium sized blades.

Much appreciated!

 

[ThomasPowers]

Depends on the alloy for one thing. And on the alloys you plan to use it on!  And what they mean by hardened.I generally like my knife making hammers fairly hard and polished and take care not to misstrike and chip them or dent the anvil

 

Edited April 13, 2015 by ThomasPowers

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. It's kind of hard to say what folk mean sometimes. I don't know why a person would normalize a cutler's or dog faced hammer though some alloys might call for it. Hard and polished is how I like ALL my hammers that aren't for striking top tools.

Were I facing this question I'd have to research the makers in depth. If they weren't willing to provide good evidence of their knowledge and skill I'd move on. I'm a show me the hard evidence guy. If I don't understand something I can and will research it. Folk unwilling to provide evidence go down my list quickly.

Be aware, this forum is open to virtually everybody so you'll have to sift  beginner's opinion  from the knowledgeable and experienced here as well. However, there are a bunch of us old curmudgeons who might call em on it so  . . . <sheepish grin>

Frosty The Lucky.

[forgeaway]

So a little research has brought up some discussion about some smiths prefer normalized (soft) hammer faces because they are still harder than forging temperature steels but they won't dent or mar the anvil.  They say its easier to re-dress your hammer once in a while then the anvil.   Any more opinions on hardened vs. soft cutler's hammer faces?

Thanks Frosty for your insight and for the warm welcome.  Been lurking for a long time, happy to be here.

 

[ThomasPowers]

If you are far along enough to be forging blades you should be beyond the messing up the anvil stage.

[Frosty]

Not wanting to mark up the anvil is a good reason, makes good sense. A person who doesn't want to modify their tooling for conditions is doomed to more labor than necessary. I have an anvil that has a REALLY hard face and isn't going to be marked by a hammer unless maybe it has a tungsten carbide insert or something equally silly. I can't say I've noticed new marks on my Trenton but it's already kind of dinged up, perfectly usable but  more dinged than the Soderfors.

I believe this is up to you and your anvil. If you miss the work and hit your anvil with the hammer and the anvil's face is soft enough to mark up then I think drawing it's temper till it's softer than the anvil face is in order. It'll depend on your anvil too, it'll be a tweak it till it's how you want it situation.

If on the other hand you don't miss the hot steel your anvil's safe. Go ahead kids, jump old Frosty on that one, I know everybody misses now and then.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

As Frosty and THomas have pointed out, most smiths prefer hard faced hammers (Rockwell hardness 45-55) just like our anvils. If like many of the "neotribal" knife smiths you are using a peice of A36 structural steel or other unhardend/relitivly soft steel a softer hammer face would be aproriate. Most smiths recomend learning hammer control before taking on knives, as knives require some higher level skills, and with thiner stock hammer control is the first of those skills. Most new "knife smiths" want to put the cart before the horse, and start on knives.  Leaving both their anvills and knives full of hammer marks. Now, if you start out that way you will probbably think that is a very condesending coment.