Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Installation of projects


Recommended Posts

What is everyone's experience with the installation of projects in residential or commercial settings? Do you do the installation, is the client responsible, or do you work with a contractor?  I suppose it is different with each project and based on the size or scope but just looking for some of your experiences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How's your insurance?  Does it cover installs?  

 

I've done a lot of architectural iron installs on and in multi million dollar houses, and it is nerve-wracking.  If you don't have pretty good carpentry skills and have all your ducks in a row logistically, AND have good communication between yourself, the builder, client, and architect then you can get into trouble quickly.  Imagine drilling into a $100,000 polished marble stair or a $20,000 finished wood floor with radiant tubing under it somewhere and you can begin to imagine what could go wrong.  Don't hit any wires with screws.  Add a deadline so the dwelling can get a Cert. of Occupancy and you get to a whole additional level of complication.  

 

You need to be very clear when you take on a project that will need installation exactly what the scope of that install will be, who will be doing it, and exactly at what point both in the project and on the calendar.  It is vitally important to get ALL players on the same page as early in the building process as possible or you may find that the builder didn't include provisions for hanging your 5,000 lbs. whatzit on the side of the house, or didn't allow any time in the schedule for your install (you can't walk on that floor cuz it's just been finished and you can't work on those stairs because the sheet rockers are loading rock up them this week...).  Or that the architect designed something that doesn't meet code.  Or that the client didn't realize that installation costs were above and beyond the price of the piece itself.

 

A lot of ironwork goes into a house at the end of a project when both time and money are tight.  The builder/contractor will be at his most stressed out and it will quickly show what kind of builder he is.  The good ones will work with you to get the job done to satisfaction no matter what, the bad ones will either not give you the time of day or will actively try to make his problems become yours.  If you have done your planning well and communicated with EVERYONE involved things will go easier.  A big job should have some sort of contract that spells out timing and responsibility, a smaller job should at least have a purchase agreement with same, and if it doesn't get that language into the documents or at the very least save your email chains about the logistics and cc everyone early and often.  

 

That said, some installs are a breeze, and good work executed well often leads to more jobs.  It's sort of instant gratification for the client because they didn't see you slaving away in the shop for 2 months, you just showed up one day and there was the amazing forged thing!  Many clients love that.  

 

Shop vacs with HEPPA filters and lots and lots of finish protection on every conceivable nearby surface are a must.  You haven't lived until you've run an O/A torch inside a finished $5million house!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well said. Insurance is key. You don't know how many jobs I've been on where one sub does damage to something, then tries to pass it off as that it was caused by some one else later and it wasn't their fault. If you are late in the job it's possible for you to get blamed for all sorts of stuff that wasn't your fault.

 

 

Besides insurance, check with your local state/ municipality if you need permits or licenses. In PA to do any work in a residential home like an installation,  you need a PA contractors license. They'll want that info if you have to pull permits or get inspections. You can shop fab anything you want without that license, but as soon as you step on the property to install it, you had better have one. I know that when this 1st came out a few years back there were quite a few inspectors driving around looking for people doing installs and home services, checking to see if they had their license. It was "found money" for the township if they caught you without one.  Note that along with that license, your license number has to be on all your paperwork, invoices, business cards and vehicles ( if lettered) and you have to give a written estimate of work and a 3 day waiting period for the customer to change their mind.  Along with needing the license, if you go for permits or get inspected, you will have prove you  have workman's comp insurance unless you are a sole proprietor with no employees or subs and sign a liability waiver.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup and you likely need a commercial plate on your truck and commercial trucks need lettering. To install you need liability insurance and workman's comp as mentioned. 

 

Even more important though is your skill level. If you are capable of fabricating but not installing, then sell the job as a manufactured product. Most successful builders are highly skilled installers. Design your projects to bolt together, not requiring any field welding so you can sell them as products instead of labor if you don't have the skills to install. 

 

I do my own installs and also install for other artists/manufacturers as well. Many of us do. I completed many apprenticeships  though, including house construction and most other aspects of architecture as well such as drafting and ironworking. 

 

If you have the skills and equipment but lack specific knowledge, 2 things. Get a copy of the building code and learn every applicable aspect, by heart. The builders should be able to count on you for correct legal installations and 

 

2. Ask your specific questions here. That is what we are here for. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So to clarify, lets say a custom home builder comes to me because their client wants a set of hand forged fireplace doors, a hanging pot rack, and a hand rail in their theater room. I am fine doing all the homework needed for the project and creation of the items. Installation though must be performed by the builder or a licensed contractor since I do not have that license.

 

Along those lines how many don't have their contractor's license and rely on others to do their installs?

Arftist -  it sounds like that is common in your area since you say you do installs for other artists.

 

FYI - the reason I am asking is because I have custom builder in the area who may be sending some work my way based on some client requests.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup and you likely need a commercial plate on your truck and commercial trucks need lettering.


I don't need commercial plates on my truck or lettering. In fact if I letter any of my vehicles my municipality will consider them commercial and township ordinances forbid parking "commercial" vehicles in a residential area over night. In theory that would include your smart car if you lettered it, though from what I understand they enforce this only by complaint. I had a pesky neighbor who ran me thru the wringer on this so I know EXACTLY what I can and can't get away with locally.

I do run into issues if I go out of state with my big truck. In PA at under 14K registered weight, I'm not considered "commercial" and don't have to stop for weigh stations or go to 6 month inspections or any of that other BS etc from what the PENNDOT told me when I bought the truck. However as so as I cross the bridge into New Jersey, their weight limit is 10K and they want everything as a commercial vehicle, medical card, log book, truck lettered with business name and DOT numbers, IFTA sticker...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So to clarify, lets say a custom home builder comes to me because their client wants a set of hand forged fireplace doors, a hanging pot rack, and a hand rail in their theater room. I am fine doing all the homework needed for the project and creation of the items. Installation though must be performed by the builder or a licensed contractor since I do not have that license.

 

Along those lines how many don't have their contractor's license and rely on others to do their installs?

Arftist -  it sounds like that is common in your area since you say you do installs for other artists.

 

FYI - the reason I am asking is because I have custom builder in the area who may be sending some work my way based on some client requests.

Offer to supervise the install. It is generally the builder himself who suffers if you don't have insurance, he then has to cover you at full bore rates. Hence the manufactured product, no workman's comp, no liability required. 

 

I do work for others because of my rep as a problem solver. Been doing this a long time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is interesting, keeping in mind,I've only done installations on extremely high end work but, I've never even been asked about a contractors license for installation. My understanding is that on the large complicated projects I work on, I am a sub to the G.C. from the moment I set foot on that job site, and whist I carry the standard million dollar liability policy for my "products" I've never had any issues with proper papers to be able to install a job, including stuff into the federal reserve in new york and constitution hall in philadelphia. Maybe I should be more concerned, but it just hasn't ever come up. Take care, Matt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matt  the law doesn't cover public buildings or even rental units or condos. Supposedly only private residences. Don't even get me started on how much BS this law is. I know quite a few guys who work without one. I did for awhile before I had to get one to pull permits for a job. ( If I had to do that job over again, I'd have passed on job to avoid the stupid license)  However I do know that for a while back when the economy tanked and townships were loosing revenue, some inspectors were really becoming a pain about this for a bit. Part of it was how visible you were doing the work. I had a few friends who did exterior work who got pestered on this fairly regularly for a while.Townships had to make up all their lost income some how.

 

I know from talking to a few guys that the Unions are even worse to deal with in some cities. Philly often being one. They want you to have at least one union guy on the install, if not more. I've worked on jobs in the city where we couldn't touch the tools because we weren't union when I worked with a friend of mine. All we could do was stand there and hand them a part and say this goes here, attach this there... Other times as long as the union guy was getting paid and no one could really see us working, he could care less if we did anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like DSW said, the law is a consumer protection thing, for residences only- not commercial construction. If you are a sub to a GC in a residential project, you ARE required to have your HIC (Home Improvement Contractor) license, as is the GC. From what I understand, the enforcement is usually complaint-based. The license costs $50 and is good for 2 years.

 

The Fed DOT thing is another big can of worms- like Doug said, over 14k # across state lines and you're there.

 

Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doug- I suppose that makes more sense as to why I've never run into it. I've done a bunch of residential work but 97% of of it was interior. Also, i believe by always having been more on the artist metalworker guy end of things as opposed to the commercial ironworker side, I'm sure I've gotten away with murder. Invariably on large projects, I'm the last one in, so everyone is tapping their feet, waiting on the temp c of o to expire, or on smaller projects, nobody asked a inspector to the shindig. As far as unions go, I avoid them like the plague, and hide behind the appellations of artist, or conservator, as the need arises. Furthermore I would encourage others to take the "better to ask permission than forgiveness route" unless what your looking at is a lighting component or a second floor handrail, I really don't think you have much to loose by just asking for some extra money to install it yourself(provided your a sole proprietorship). I tend not to trust other people to install my work, as that there is always some last minute problem. just one more point of view.Hope this is usefull. Take care, Matt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...