LibrariaNPC Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm considering making a few sets of tongs in the near future, but wanted to make sure I'm not forgetting something. I have a few questions just to make sure I'm reading into things correctly, and would appreciate any help that the collected wisdom here could provide. 1) Materials: Is there a suggestion regarding what to use? I've read the mild steel will work, but I've seen a number of sources state that most tools should be made of tool steel, thus the question. 2) Design: Is there a good suggestion for a "first set of tongs" that will be versatile enough to get started? I have a set of wolf jaw tongs I purchased to get started, but I feel like they don't handle as well as others for what I do. Most of my work, for now, will be in various basics (scrolling, general shaping, etc) with mild steel, knives, and trying out experiments with railroad spikes. 3) Holding Them Together: What would be the suggested way to bolt them in place? I don't have much beyond my anvil, hammers, and that stubborn determination to make things work out, so I'm curious if that's enough or will I need something special, like a bolt/nail header. Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 - Mild steel works fine in most applications and can be quenched when red hot. I once made a nice pair of 4140 tongs that someone else was using at a demo - the tongs heated up to red and lasted a couple of heats before snapping off right at the hinge. My fault for bringing them to a demo and not explaining to the user... - I like "bolt" tongs i.e., the type that have a bowed jaw shaped like a "C" that bite in a relatively small area. I also like v-shaped jaws because they hold both round and square. - Use a bolt and nut the first time. Riveting can wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 For learning I'd suggest mild steel. It will take a bit to get things worked out and it's cheaper and easier to get unless you have access to something like used springs for stock. Design, I'd go for something simple like V bit tongs to start. They will do round or square stock and are pretty easy to make. Once you get them down, you can start getting fancier. I helped a kid last year make a simple set of V bit tongs so he could forge out RR spikes. For spikes, a set of bolt tongs work better so you have clearance for the head of the spike, but I've found guys some times have trouble getting the jaws the same when they are extended out and bent like that at 1st. It might pay to either hold off until you have things down a bit or simply buy a set to do the spikes. Connections, rivets are the typical way these are done, but nuts and bolts will work in a pinch or for test fitting. I simply make my own rivets out of 1/4" round scrap, but I've chopped the head off a bolt or machine screw in a pinch and just peened over the 2nd side. It's pretty easy to make a riveting jig. A simple block of steel thru drilled the size you want to use for stock works just fine. Sit that on the anvil and drop the heated stock into the tool so it extends out the top 1 1/2 to 2x the diameter of the stock and then shape as wanted. Quench and the rivet usually drops out pretty easily. a light tap with a punch on the open bottom end will drive it out if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibrariaNPC Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 When you say that the tongs "heated up to red and lasted a couple of heats," was there something wrong with how it was used or is that just a risk with making your own tongs? When using the nut and bolt method to hold the tongs together, are there any risks when using them that I should be aware of? V shaped seems to have the most potential, apparently, so I'll try for that. Bolt tongs look really useful for spikes, but I don't believe I'm at that level JUST yet to produce the correct sizes. As for the rivets: basically I'd just drill a hole into some thicker metal I have (tool steel? Harbor Freight anvil anchor?) to reach the length I want, then while the heated metal is in, I just hammer it to make the rivet head? If so, how is the rivet going to secure the tongs? Am I missing something here? Thanks again for the input so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I don't have much beyond my anvil, hammers, and that stubborn determination to make things work out, so I'm curious if that's enough If you do have 'stubborn determination to make things work out', get your skinny butt out to your shop and try a few things. THEN come back, put up some pictures of your efforts and ask a question. Then repeat the process. That's determination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 4140 + red hot + multiple water quenching = potential for cracking/failure Watch for the nut to come loose and fall off. I suppose the bolt threads could also wear the hole faster than a good fitting rivet. For the rivet, you make the head first, then install it, then peen over the second side. Lets say your tongs are 1" thick. You'd want a plate 1-1/4" thick with a hole to suit your rivet stock, in this poor example, 1/4" dia. Cut a piece of stock 1-1/2" long, heat it, drop it into the 1-1/4" plate and peen over the bit sticking out to make the head. Heat the rivet again, drop it into the tongs, flip tongs over, then peen over the little bit sticking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibrariaNPC Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Bob, I'm currently waiting for a clear day when I'm not at work to set up the forge again (I'm in the yard, so no overhead coverings and lacking proper lighting to work at night), so I'm asking questions while I wait. Doing research on downtime seems to be much better than wasting time doing nothing and then wasting material when I DO get started, wouldn't you agree? If all goes well, I should be able to fire it up on Friday afternoon and experiment again. I have a knife I started and shaped last Monday (just need to clean it now that it's annealed), so I'll be sharing that and any other experiments I can work on this weekend. JME, thanks for explaining that. I don't have any experience with 4140 (my small experiences are with 1048 and W-2), so I had to ask before I ended up doing something potentially hazardous and wasteful. And that makes perfect sense with the rivet. Now, is there a reason to not to just make the rivet with the (almost) finished piece? I assume it's due to heat and the possibility of expanding within the space (and being useless as a hinge), but I don't know if that's correct in this case. Thanks again for the input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickOHH Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Mild steel are a good choice for your first goes at tongs, as said above bolt tongs are nice I think they are easier to make more forgiving to line everything up once they riveted. The problem with medium to high carbon steel is they're gonna be getting hot and then quenched while heating your project again which will harden them to a brittle state that can tolerate the stress or you have an oil hardening steel which when quenched in water can cause cracking. You can however use mild steel for the jaw and boss ( hinge) area and weld on spring steel reigns so you can have thinner lighter reins. You can use medium to high carbon steels for the whole but have to be aware of the risk of breakage and let them cool before quenching if they are more than a low black heat. I've had good luck with bolt tongs from 1/2 inch mild steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Have a look here http://www.hlcollege.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/Blacksmith/BlacksmithscraftPart5_tcm2-18916.pdf Lesson 37 page 100 on, Decide what type of jaws you want and allow for that when starting, just practice flat bit first, then you can adjust to suit. once you have the technique, you can adjust sizes for each purpose. for a rivet, piece of bar, leave 3 x diameter of bar when fitted loose, then heat assembly, dome over from each side progressively, until jaws tight'ish, work jaws to ensure free movement, last few hits, quench and work until cool, then anneal and you should be ready to go. Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickOHH Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 There's a pic of the ones I made last real easy to make and they work great. Just flatten our 4-6 inches for the jaw area flip and flatten and taper back to the round bar . Shape the "c" behind the jaw and punch whole in the boss rivet and set the jaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibrariaNPC Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Thanks for the metal note, Nick. Your tongs are looking good, there! John, that is an awesome source there! I'll add that to my list of resources to explore in greater detail for more project ideas/education purposes (especially with the welding notes). On that note, is it possible/sane to make tongs out of round stock, or should I specifically be going with bar stock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickOHH Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Round stock works just fine, something you can try if you want to taper your reins not just leave em straight is do a hexagonal taper insted of square. Rotate 60 degrees insted of 90 and it's easier to round off and keeps the taper straiter and more even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 On that note, is it possible/sane to make tongs out of round stock, or should I specifically be going with bar stock? you're kidding.....right? Next question.... How do I strike a match? funny part?..... some will answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibrariaNPC Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Thanks for that tip, Nick. I was curious as most of the instructions and suggested materials I see for forging tongs are bits of square stock (I think ONE was round stock), so it made me wonder if there was just a general dislike or if there was some limiting factor or concern I didn't know about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsoldat Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Brian Brazeal has a fantastic video on youtube on making tongs. There are quite a few others that have excellent youtube videos on tongs of various sorts. Google a few and watch them a few times thru and things will start to make a lot of sense in a hurry. Time well spent even giving them a good perusal. heck even have it in a small window in the corner of your screen while cruising thru IFI. some times the important bits catch your eye when you least expect it... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibrariaNPC Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Thanks Dogsoldat! I'll add that to the list when I'm at a PC I can listen to things (i.e. not at work), as I've learned that sometimes, they say something more important than they show. I'll give one of the videos a watch tomorrow during a break, then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickOHH Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Brian brazeal's videos are really good the subject there's one of the whole process and another were he uses clay to explain his one he tong blank in depth. Worth a look. I haven't tried square bar for tongs yet(although I may have to try just to see) but I've had good success with the round. Also liked I didn't need to worry about the reins so they're perfectly even and smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Good Morning, question, Round or square/rectangular material. Round has less volume for the same length. Round is square with the corners knocked off. Any piece or dimension of material will work for your project. The difference is, how much work do you want to do?? There is NO WRONG WAY. The only wrong way, is like someone else said, You can't learn with your fingers on the keyboard. :) :) Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibrariaNPC Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Gotcha. Thanks Neil! Again, I'll be setting up this weekend as long as it's not raining/snowing, so hopefully I can put these notes to good use! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 first Flat jaw tongs is a very good starting point it will help you with the proportions of the tongs. Start with mild steel its cheep I have even made a good pair of scrolling tongs out of a 2 railroad spikes. Second as you get better making tongs invest in some 1045 it is what the tong making companies work with. Third 3/4" stock is a great size to work with. There is a thread on this site the has the chart of tong sizes and the amount of material you should have for the proportion of the tongs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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