Purchase advice

[RogueRugger]

I am about to look at a 25# Little Giant.  I'm very much a newb at this level of smithing and this is going to be my first adventure in power hammers. I've used a power hammer twice for very small jobs. I know nothing about this particular machine other than it is 'in great working order'.  obviously :) 

 

I continue to skim the discussions here and videos around the net to try to get a bit smarter on the whole thing, but still feel pretty ignorant. Once I have the serial number more background should be available from the little giant folks, but are there some things can be checked visually when I get visitation rights? 

 

Here's my short list, based on a similar discussion in this forum for another style hammer: 

- cracks in housing

- 'slop' or 'play' between parts (although I have to admit I don't have a clue what acceptable 'slop' means)

- holes with nothing attached (i'm going to take along a couple of pictures of whatever variations there might be for the 25#)

 

I'm in no great rush or need for an immediate purchase and won't likely be able to seriously use it until summer at the earliest. Just like to avoid missing a good deal like I did earlier this year with another LG in Arizona.   

 

Thanks for your patience,

...Dave

 

 

[Frosty]

I'm not too clear about your question Dave. Are you asking what to look for? What's good what's a danger sign? How a LG works in general or specific?

 

Not knowing exactly what you need to know about all I can advise you to do is to follow the same rules of thimb you would buying a used car. Take an overall scan of the thing: Is it broken? Do parts rattle in directions OTHER than they should? Can you test drive it?

 

Bring a mechanic to look at it for you, it's not like you can drive it to a garage for a pro evaluation. There are a LOT of high end blacksmiths in NM, see if you can get one to take a look at it with you. Sure it might cost you lunch, a 6 pack, etc. but believe me if it prevents you from a rebuild headache it's worth it.

 

That's about all I can say not knowing more about what you're asking. I bought my 50lb. LG with very little personal power hammer experience but I have decades of experience with machinery of all kinds and I got to test drive it. You don't need to forge hot steel/iron to test drive one, a 2x4 beaten to flinders will tell you all you really need to know. Do the dies hit flat? Does the die hit the same spot? Do the moving parts move smoothly? Does it rattle much? A mechanical hammer like a LG will rattle but it's normal, there are a lot of links, springs, arms cranks toggles, etc. to rattle but a little time listening and watching will clue you about what should be going on.

 

Post some pics, maybe someone here will see something you don't.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[RogueRugger]

Thanks Frosty - Sorry, I should have been more specific.  i am absolutely not looking for advice on how to use it. Rather, insight into what I should be looking for in the initial visual inspection. I have experience in breaking things for a living so I have some (common?) sense of what to look for. However, I was interested in opinions/insights related to any LG unique issues that might show up on a visual . Just trying to do as much homework as I can.  Once I'm comfortable with the initial look-see, I'll pester some folks around here for additional 'advice'. Thanks for the quick feedback and best for the new year.  

[ThomasPowers]

So has it been rebuilt?  If so by someone who knew what they were doing? How much slop in the guides?  Bang-tap-miss?

How is the clutch?  (How soon will it need replacing).  How are the dies?  Can they be removed without a major undertaking?

Are they too short (indicative of wear and regrinding).  Does it look like it was dipped in used oil daily for years?  (for a LG "too much oil is barely enough!")  How old is the motor and does it use a jackshaft or is running too fast?

 

What did Larry Kern of SWABA say about it???

[RogueRugger]

@Thomas : all good questions. Thanks for the suggestions. I was at Larry's shop just before Christmas and when I get more info I'll be sure to pay him a visit.

[SJS]

Does it have extra dies, does it only have flat dies, or combo dies, or plow shear dies...  Even small flat dies are very useful, and if they are worn enough to have a faint dip, and softening of the edge even better;-)  If they are sharp enough to cut yourself on, not so much, but taking them out and softening the long edges can fix that... Combo dies will work, plow dies are useable but not nearly as versatile.  Does it look like a war troll had installed the dies last, and is it going to be an ordeal to get them out, and you will need to make new wedges???

 

Is the adjustment bolt that allows you to shorten the stroke still useable, if you want to use much tooling under a 25#LG you will need to be able to shorten the stroke so there is more air between the dies.

 

Does it have a BRAKE???  Its much easier to get MANNERS out of a little mechanical hammer if it has a break,  rather than hitting your tool 2.5 times instead of once...

 

None of the these are real deal breakers, new dies can be bought or made, the stroke adjustment can be fixed and a brake fabricated, but if you get all the goodie up front even better...

[dsloan]

RogueRugger,

 

If you live in Albuquerque, you need to contact the Gunthers in I believe (forgive the spelling) Moriarity.

 

Here's a link to their website. (http://g3blacksmithing.com/)

 

It would be worth your time to contact them and if possible go vist with them. They are running 4-25lb LG's.  They could give you a quick run down of how they operate and what to look for.

 

Their dad's name is Rob, (highly respected blacksmith and his boys equally as talented), Chad and Brad.

 

Tell them that Sid's friend Dave Sloan sent you their way.

 

They might even know of the hammer that you are refering to.

 

Dave from Diller

[RogueRugger]

@dsloan : thanks, I'll pass on the greetings to Rob. I had planned on talking to him when things became clearer.

@SJS : all good suggestions. Thanks.

[HWooldridge]

Hi Dave,

I once bought a 25 lb LG that was completely disassembled for $150. It was my first PH and I didn't know anything about them other than my own common sense with regard to normal mechanics and I was able to reassemble it with no problems. They are pretty simple machines so treat it like a used car - trust your gut if the old antennae go up for any reason. Otherwise, most things are easy to repair. The sow block dovetail eventually broke on my hammer so I built a new one from a big piece of steel shaft - worked perfectly thereafter. Don't try to overthink it; little hammers are much easier to clean up than their big brothers just because of their smaller scale.

Good luck,

Hollis W

[781]

I can beat Hollis I once paid $5 for a 25# hammer but that was 30 years ago. I live 80 miles from the foundry and there used to be one every 10 miles or so. In the last 10 years have bid 650 sometimes site unseen and haven't bought a hammer. Have seen dies welded in which is not a good deal. Check for shims under the top journal caps these are to adjust the Babbitt bearings. Check the ram slop at bottom and top of stroke comparing the difference. Might be 3 phase motor.

[dsloan]

Dave,

 

Take the time with Rob.  He'll tell you everything you need to know about buying a hammer and how to run it.

 

For example they say "a photo is worth a thousand words" well a minute with Rob is about twice that.

 

Dave from diller

[RogueRugger]

I thought I'd put a cap on this thread. My thanks to everyone for their excellent suggestions. The machine is in fine shape, a bit of oil everywhere (not unexpected but still a surprise). Solid, quiet, with extra dies of various 'aggressiveness' / radius. The dies and shims are all solid and were seated well. The second cell block was also in good shape.

[ianinsa]

Ooi, what's this 'put a cap on it' doo doo! Did you buy it? Did you get it for a good price etc. We're a nosy lot here you know! :)

 

Nice looking hammer BTW.

[RogueRugger]

Okay, okay.  Conclusion: I don't intend to pursue the hammer any further right now.  Without actually tearing the hammer down, my impression was that the hammer was in good/very good condition. It was pretty cold outside [9F = -12C = freakin' cold even for this old Minnesota boy] and the shop was just warming up so the hammer was a bit 'stiff'. However, I watched him draw out a very, very nice leaf on 1/4" stock which, at least to me, provided an interesting demo of the control available on the hammer. The primary reason for moving on was the price of $5800, which I felt was a bit high. The second cell block was something I hadn't heard about as was the additional adjustment plate on the main arm. [not quite sure how to explain this.] 

 

I have a year before a new home and shop are completed so I'm in no hurry. The lack of a hammer isn't holding me up; plenty to learn without it. 

 

My thanks for all the suggestions, they were/are very helpful. I say 'are' because I'm trying to set up an appointment to see another LG later in January. The saga continues ...  :D

[ThomasPowers]

SOW block not CELL block!

[njanvilman]

$5800 has to be the highest price I have ever heard of for a 25 lb LG.  That even tops Matchless prices for rebuilt/painted, ready to plug in hammers.  I do not think that hammer will move anywhere at that price.

[SJS]

Even with all the extra goodies that is high... I thought the 4k for a 25LG was high, most I see are 2-3K.  What I find interesting is that you can sometimes find bigger hammers for less than that.  I think its because most people don't want to move the big guys, can't fit them in their garage, and/or are afraid of them;-)  I want to find a big hammer at a little hammer price, not a little hammer at a big hammer price;-)

[RogueRugger]

@Mr Thomas: yep, sorry I realize that for some reason I even did that twice. Freudian slip I suspect. Particularly bad since I was trying to find out why it was called a sow block. 'Anvil cap' I understand since it is supposed to protect the anvil, but why 'sow block'? Anyway, thanks for the catch. Dave

[ianinsa]

I've often wondered about that? Maybe cause sometimes they are a 'pig' to get out? :)

[HWooldridge]

The terms "sow" and "pig" came out of the casting industry because the gates and runners on open molds looked similar to a sow hog suckling her pigs.

[jason0012]

I believe that factory refurbished 25# hammers were running 6500 at one time. but you could buy a small air hammer for that. I would rather buy a cheep wreck of a hammer and do a full rebuild than pay factory new price for a "might be good" rebuild. When you do look beware that there have been a lot of sellers  that  paint a machine and call it rebuilt. I don't think a 25# hammer is worth that unless it is really set up, break, guard(a serious one) dies, spare spring, all new bearings, new motor, and mounted on a pad and ready to run.

[SJS]

For 6500$ I would much rather have a small air hammer, the air hammer will have better control and if your a nervous sort you can sneak up on the steel;-) The LG might hit harder, but unless you have a brake on the LG you are gonna have more than afew double strikes when you are trying for one decent hit. With a brake not very often.

I think the learning curve is a little steeper on a mechanical hammer. But the mechanicals hit very hard for their weight. It is much easier to get light blows, and single blows out of an air hammer... If all you are doing is drawing out Damascus billets a little LG#25 set at 400bpm is fine, if you like sneaking up on the metal an air hammer is the berries;-)

[dsloan]

At the point that Mr. Suedmeier (the past owner of LG) sold out you could still get a 25# hammer with complete rebuild from him for 4800.  The hammers from him rebuilt were above factory specs. 

 

I've spent the last 10 years around Sid and working closely with him for 6500 I've got a 50.  That I'd deliver within 500miles and set up ready to run.

 

Dave from diller