L Smith Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 First I have never rebuilt or used a power hammer. But have rebuilt many aircraft landing gears The bore should be clean of pits, however from a practical view point you are not falling out of the sky! The bore pits are good oil traps. The piston face should be cleaned up and the gasket area. Clean the rust and treat with a chemical Parkerizing corrosion control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 good site re alldays etc. http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/shop/alldays2.html Thanks Bob, I found this site recently too. Some good info and pictures. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 Do you have the bigend torque settings Alan? Still not sure if I need to delve into that area or not, did you see my post/pictures above? Thank you, Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) Do you have the bigend torque settings Alan? Still not sure if I need to delve into that area or not, did you see my post/pictures above? Thank you, Jason good site re alldays etc. http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/shop/alldays2.html Interesting record of the process. I sent the Alldays manual and spec PDFs that I posted here to Mike Spencer back in the early 2000s, he was one of the first I sent them to. Good to see he got his hammer sorted. I will look out our email correspondence, there may be something of use for rawtiron or others. Do you have the bigend torque settings Alan? Still not sure if I need to delve into that area or not, did you see my post/pictures above? Thank you, Jason I don't have I am afraid. British Standard FN tight I would imagine! Measure the bolt and look up torque figures. The only reason I would remove the main bearings is if there is play in them. If you can't be sure if it is too much, then you can always get the machine running , listen to the rumble and do the bearings as a separate job. I would be inclined to scrape the rust off with a mild or stainless steel scraper. Keep filing/grinding the scraper edge square and that should remove the rust without reducing the good metal. Fine wet and dry or emery cloth glued to a straight piece of 40 or 50 mm square steel which you can keep in line with the axis and which is long enough to cover the whole tup bearing surface at either end of the stroke will do the final clean and make sure you don't make the tup cone shaped! use it like a woodworkers jointing/shooting plane. I have never done this so I am just thinking aloud, first principles. Others may have experience of better systems. John posted rule of thumb tolerances for bores and bearings on the recent IFI 1cwt Alldays thread which will give you a yardstick (if not a thousandths stick!) Alan Edited December 29, 2014 by Alan Evans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 29, 2014 Author Share Posted December 29, 2014 Thank you again Alan. Do you think it's worth removing the piston and big end bearings? It all looks so clean (can't see the crank journal of course) and from what I can see of the rings through the valve at the back, they are clean also Or is it best to check it all anyway? Just in case... Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I would leave well alone. If it moves now after the years of standing there is every chance it was working fine when it was decommissioned. As I have said before it is an air hammer so it is pretty water tight. On the basis of if it ain't broke don't fix it I would leave well alone and see what happens when you fire it up. You may well save yourself a few days and weeks of unnecessary work. The grey stuff around the bearing housing does make one think of Babbitt or White metal bearing material but it could be all sorts of things. Can't think how it would be carried upwards if I am reading the photo right. The bit of rust behind the crank end cap could be good news because the oil stayed in the tight bearing or bad news because the last user ran the sump dry. Everything else would appear to have survived as one would hope so I don't think you need to look for problems. If the crank shaft does not lift up and down when you put a pry bar under the flywheel and it turns over without graunching you will not improve it in any meaningful way by taking it apart! You can't do any harm if you start it up and find that the bearrings knock, providing of course you then fix them! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I would agree with Alan . It looks to me like you have a clean hammer. There is no point fiddling if it ain't broke.... I cleaned up the bore of mine with 200 grit sand paper to remove lose rust and then washed the rust dust away with thin oil and cleaned the surfaces with rags . Did the ram and the front bore and then took the back cylinder to dead bottom and did same on that giving it a good wash through with thin oil. You can also walk the drive wheel around (literaly standing on top of it) to get some oil pumped to all the bearings before you start it up properly. I replaced all of the valve springs on mine. If you manage to free up the bypass valve without damaging it you are doing a better job than me. The valve is very usefull for giving you low powered blows as you can run the machine at partial power ( partial vaccumm) great for punching flattening and the like. Make sure that you measure the dead bottom depth of the ram as it sits Down upon the wedge . I gave mine a coupe of inches safty margined when working out the anvil and hammer mounting heights. I also put a safty line on the ram with slitting disk at 1" above dead bottom as there was no mark on the ram to indicate this. Some hammers do have a mark. Good luck with the instilation, these are great hammers . Your 200 is certainly more modern than mine as my one has manual oiling. I would really advise exhausting the air out of your building as is is so unbelievably noisy if you don't ( hard to think kind of noise). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 I would agree with Alan . It looks to me like you have a clean hammer. There is no point fiddling if it ain't broke.... I cleaned up the bore of mine with 200 grit sand paper to remove lose rust and then washed the rust dust away with thin oil and cleaned the surfaces with rags . Did the ram and the front bore and then took the back cylinder to dead bottom and did same on that giving it a good wash through with thin oil. You can also walk the drive wheel around (literaly standing on top of it) to get some oil pumped to all the bearings before you start it up properly. I replaced all of the valve springs on mine. If you manage to free up the bypass valve without damaging it you are doing a better job than me. The valve is very usefull for giving you low powered blows as you can run the machine at partial power ( partial vaccumm) great for punching flattening and the like. Make sure that you measure the dead bottom depth of the ram as it sits Down upon the wedge . I gave mine a coupe of inches safty margined when working out the anvil and hammer mounting heights. I also put a safty line on the ram with slitting disk at 1" above dead bottom as there was no mark on the ram to indicate this. Some hammers do have a mark. Good luck with the instilation, these are great hammers . Your 200 is certainly more modern than mine as my one has manual oiling. I would really advise exhausting the air out of your building as is is so unbelievably noisy if you don't ( hard to think kind of noise).Thanks a lot to you both, I feel bit easier about all now. There's is no movement in the bearings that I can feel with the pry bar under the flywheel. The decompression valve was rusted solid so I drilled out the pin on the handle and managed to work that almost off and the pin broke, so I tigged it back on with 312 wire. So far so good.... I then heated up the housing and freed the valve. It all cleaned up ok after that. Here's some photos of the tup clean up. I scraped it like you suggested Alan which got the looser rust off and then went over it with a brass wire wheel which made a huge difference then a light sand. There are some deeper rust pits in (not unexpected with what it looked like to start with) but I'm happy with how it's coming along. What grade oil do you guys run in these? Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Wondrous stuff that 312, I use it for repairing all sorts. I initially used Castrol Massey PH which I presumed stood for power hammer. But they no longer make it. So I have subsequently been using 46 grade hydraulic oil. I use 32 in the Reiter hammer and the 46 which is what I use in the telehandler and forklift hydraulics. I can't remember whether it is ISO 46 or sae 46 of the top of my head. I am away for a few days and will look it up when I get home. Maybe Ptree will advise if you are lucky. To add further confusion I have just remembered I also had Hydraulic oil with a 90 or 100 number. Aargh! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I use Airvane 2100 (e201) which was a match for the vintage oil spec on the side of my 300 . Ill go out and get that spec for you as well when im next in the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Wondrous stuff that 312, I use it for repairing all sorts. I initially used Castrol Massey PH which I presumed stood for power hammer. But they no longer make it. So I have subsequently been using 46 grade hydraulic oil. I use 32 in the Reiter hammer and the 46 which is what I use in the telehandler and forklift hydraulics. I can't remember whether it is ISO 46 or sae 46 of the top of my head. I am away for a few days and will look it up when I get home. Maybe Ptree will advise if you are lucky. To add further confusion I have just remembered I also had Hydraulic oil with a 90 or 100 number. Aargh! Alan I use Airvane 2100 (e201) which was a match for the vintage oil spec on the side of my 300 . Ill go out and get that spec for you as well when im next in the forge. Great, thank you. It looks like that 46 grade oil is readily available here but I'll wait to hear from you. Happy New Year!! Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Alan, not wishing to hijack the thread but here we are! The 312 wire? I've had a roll lying around and never had a use for it? I've always tough of the 309L as the 'go to wire' how much better would you rate the 312? Sorry for the small side track Jason, even though I don't have an alldays I've enjoyed this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Alan, not wishing to hijack the thread but here we are! The 312 wire? I've had a roll lying around and never had a use for it? I've always tough of the 309L as the 'go to wire' how much better would you rate the 312? Sorry for the small side track Jason, even though I don't have an alldays I've enjoyed this thread.No problem Ian, we may all learn something here. A friend of mine who is a fitter/welder/turner (I am none of these) introduced me to it a few years back and I've only used it a few times. (Welded some corten legs to a very tough plough disc for a brazier and it flowed and welded beautifully) I've never welded cast iron before but it seemed to ok. It still cracked a little but then was ok when I went back over it and has held well for what I'm needing as it only holds a handle to turn the valve (and keeps it original). I'll drill and bolt it, if the weld ever fails. I did weld the other rear cover on the hammer (opened up a crack as I loosened the bolts) but that kept cracking through the weld as it cooled but has held on the end ok. I preheated it an post heated it. Happy New Year! Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Jason, thanks on the reply, for the repair that you have done I would have added another disk on top and welded it all round with 'bronze' wire as an effective braze! I love the 'bronze' as you use a tig torch but get the usefulness of brazing using a wire that melts and flows real easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Jason, thanks on the reply, for the repair that you have done I would have added another disk on top and welded it all round with 'bronze' wire as an effective braze! I love the 'bronze' as you use a tig torch but get the usefulness of brazing using a wire that melts and flows real easy. Hi Ian, I'll give it a go in a few days when I'm back out there, just been focused on the crack!! I've got some silicon bronze filler wire there. So still preheat it etc? And as far as the disc goes, 2-3mm thick? Thank you, Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Jason, maybe I've been lucky in my ignorance but I haven't preheated, I usually would do it at the end of a forging session and pop it in a hot forge and leave it to cool in the forge overnight. As For thickness I recon TP has it dead on with the " think what's right and add a factor of 10" or something to that effect. with the disk your 'thickness is actually half the diameter so it's more a case of what have you got? Also when you have finished and cooled the job you can heat the center of the disk and as it cools it will pull as it shrinks thereby increasing the 'hold' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Maybe I've got this wrong/misunderstood Ian...... My first thought when you said 'disc' was to make it slightly smaller dia than the cover and tig braze it on the outside and drill the holes through it and blend it in. I've got up to 6mm plate lying around. That would not work with the thickness half the dia rule. Can you please explain it further for me. Thank you, Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Jason , I would put in a disk to cover the 'whole' plate, to the upstand, yes you would need to make two holes to go over the two existing holes. I recon that your existing piece is brittle so as with glass if you have a hole in it where the edge of the hole isn't smooth when you stress the glass it starts to 'crack' at a 'chip/fracture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Re 312 vs 309. I understand that they are fairly interchangeable in the real world. They both do a good job on dissimilar metals. To a great extent when welding dissimilar metals the resultant weld metal depends on how much of either base metal has been melted into the mix which is why they are difficult to qualify. I think the 312 which is 29/9 is harder and has greater tensile strength. The 309 is softer and more forgiving of prolonged overheated during welding, maybe better for buttering. Given the same conditions materials and welding technique they would have those marginal differences. But I gather the welder herself can have a greater effect upon the result than the filler rod choice if you see what I mean. I was recommended 312 by my welding supplies guy to repair the pallets on the power hammer. It has stood up well. And I have subsequently used it on all sorts of weird combinations. 312 are more expensive than 309 I think but it would be churlish to think that was the the reason he recommended it over the 309! On cast iron I have always had limited (ie minimal!) success with welding. Brazing has been my choice, I ended up doing exhaust manifolds on our old MGs for a pastime....unfortunately it has all too often been my second choice. I still occasionally forget past failures and attempt to weld but by the time you have preheated, post heated, hammer peined, then listened to the awful cracking sound then given up and reverted to brazing... I just wish my optimistic "I am sure I can weld it" would learn the error of its ways! :) Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Thanks for the input Alan, knowledgeable and helpful as always! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 You old charmer you! :) (A welding expert will probably come on and refute every thing I have said now!) Happy New Year to all by the by. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtiron Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Jason , I would put in a disk to cover the 'whole' plate, to the upstand, yes you would need to make two holes to go over the two existing holes. I recon that your existing piece is brittle so as with glass if you have a hole in it where the edge of the hole isn't smooth when you stress the glass it starts to 'crack' at a 'chip/fracture The tig brazing worked a treat! Thanks Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Sweet biscuits that looks awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I have had a look at the oil barrels I have they are Castrol Hyspin AWS 32 AWS 46 and AWS 100. The AWS 100 is what I use in the 3cwt and that was the nearest that Castrol recommended when they stopped the Massey PH. I have looked at the plate on the side of the machine and tried to find equivalents with Google. The Wakefield Deusolo I could not find (Wakefield became Castrol) but the Shell Talpa Oil30 and the Vacuum Gargoyle (Mobil) DTE Oil Extra Heavy Duty would appear to be ISO Grade 150. Presumably Massey specified a lighter oil than Alldays and Onions. My 3cwt has run for 23 or so years on a blend of Massey PH and Hyspin 100 and shows no obvious signs of distress. Although we don't have extremes of temperature here it has run from below freezing to too hot to hold your hand on the tup cylinder.... Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I found the email correspondence I had with Mike Spencer a few years ago. Some of it will be useful to Jason and maybe others:- To: mspencer From: Alan Evans Subject: allday and onions Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays01.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays02.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays03.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays04.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays05.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays06.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays07.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays08.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays09.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays10.pdf: :Macintosh HD:293278:Alldays11.pdf: Dear Mike, There is a name from my past, was it the Hereford conference or a more recent ABANA one we met last? Nobody responded to my offer to post so I did not bother. Hope these are helpful. I cast a block of concrete 3m x 3m x 1.5m deep which was roughly 12 cubic metres of concrete and about three times what the Alldays spec. recommended...it has a 75mm air gap all the way round so that there is no contact with the floor or walls of the building...the anvil is mounted on a 12mm rubber pad and sealed with silicon to prevent ingress of water and scale....I get virtually no transmission of vibration or noise. If you need more details let me know and I will dig it out. Alan X-From_: mspencer Thu Mar 14 18:58:29 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:58:08 -0400 From: mspencer To: evans.greene Subject: Re: allday and onions Reply-to: mspencer@tallships.ca Yow! This is splendid! Thank you! > There is a name from my past, was it the Hereford conference or a > more recent ABANA one we met last? Probably Hereford but maybe DePere in '84 where I was a demonstrator. The last one I managed to get to was 1990. I'm flattered that you remember me. The PDFs you sent are just what I will need. Your comments on installation will be helpful as well. I'm glad to know that the rubber matt idea works. > If you need more details let me know and I will dig it out. Well, the manual says, Shortly after placeing an order, a General Arrangement and Foundation Drawing is forwarded, which should be carefully followed. That information appears not to be in the manual. Were you to have such a drawing, that would be the remaining critical piece. If you have it and it's too big to scan, I'd be willing to compensate you for any costs associated with having it copied at a blueprint shop or the like and airmailed. I'm planning a new shop at my very rural home, talking to the builder today in fact, because travelling 17 miles to my old place in the middle of a fishing village isn't working for me any longer. I don't really want somthing I can't move sitting inside the shop, especially not considering that overhaul will likely take several months. I'm thinking of putting a completely independent concrete pad just outside the wall near the forging station and framing the wall to make cutting in a wide opening there easy later. Then the hammer can have its own little shed that will be painless to remove should I need to move the monster or, say, rig a gantry to pull the tup out for refinishing. I don't know which size this is. I'll have to run over today and find out, but I suspect it's the 3cwt -- 7 feet tall and with a separate anvil. I'm talking to people next week about the concrete slab for the shop. I don't know just how to allow for the difference in height for the anvil and hammer body mounting surfaces so further information on that would be very helpful if you have it. The last owner but one had it running for years for rough work. He offloaded it by the roadside as part of some hairbrained scheme to get rich staking out a goldmine claim in an area where there is just a bit of gold in the rocks. Then he learned that the authorities wouldn't let him do it because it's in a reservoir watershed and no mining, especially not of lead-bearing ores, is permitted. So it sat there for a couple of years. He refused to sell it to me fo any less that the premium price for a well maintained, running hammer. Eventually, after the electric motor was damaged by vandals who tried (unsuccessfully :-) to steal the copper windings, he sold it to another smith for very little. The other smith has failed to get it running and is eager to have a working hammer of any kind. So a swap for my old clunker mechanical hammer of unknown origin is in order and I'll still have a 25# Canadian Little Giant for the more delicate stuff I like to do. There's no hope of getting 3-phase power where I am but as the motor is damaged anyhow, I'm looking at a substitute drive of some kind in any case. That should be an interesting challenge. Thanks again and *do* let me know if you can find the foundation drawing and specs. Regards, - Mike --- Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada To: mspencer@ From: Alan Evans Subject: Re: More Re: Alldays and Onions Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: I hope you received my earlier message thanking you for the Alldays & Onions PDFs you sent. I have just received copies of the blueprints for the concrete and timber base and installation from the Alldays-Peacock works. If you have not yet commenced to pursue my earlier request that you send me blueprint copies, you need not do so. (If you have already spent money on copying or whatever on my behalf, I'll still reimburse you.) I do have a question. You said, in a previous message, that "the anvil is mounted on a 12mm rubber pad and sealed with silicon to prevent ingress of water and scale" in your installation. Did you also use the heavy timbers under the anvil and hammer body as shown on the installation blueprints? Or did you mount either or both parts directly on the concrete with only the rubber pad between the concrete and the casting(s)? This is going to be a long but entertaining project because I have yet to build the new shop and pour the hammer pad and, as well, the hammer was ill used by the last but one owner. I'd be grateful for any further comments or advice you might care to offer. Thanks again for your help. - Mike --- Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada Dear Mike, Iam glad you have the blueprints, I was working myself up to redrawing them on the computer because my copy is very difficult to read and would not photocopy or scan well. I will do that when I have a “long winter evening” evening honest! When I contacted Allday and Peacocks 20 years ago about my hammer I was told they had no information from the old hammers...I guess I just happened to speak to the wrong person. It was the company near Bristol not one in Canada that you had the plans from was it? I do have my working sketches filed away, some of which may be useful for you. I will try and scan them in and send them over. The rubber anvil mat replaces the wood. It has the huge advantage of never crushing on one side and throwing your tooling out of alignment, that always does happen to an extent with timber. They used to lift the hammer and renew the timbers regularly in industry. I could not do that due to the lack of height of the building I put up around it. It has the disadvantage that any water that gets inbetween it and the concrete acts like a jackhammer and will destroy the concrete. It is intolerant of any scale that finds its way under the anvil, that will tilt the tooling which it would not do so much with wood. The rubber comes from a company called Walkers who are based at the Lion Works Woking, Surrey, England I did manage to find a US subsiduary and sent the address to Anvils ring some years ago (but it was not published for some reason) so there was one then and maybe is still in existance....Just found it J walker PO Box 467 Glenwood Illinois tel. 078 7544020fax 078 7544058 The hammer body is still on wood. I did not sink it into the ground but raised the hammer and anvil up by 5" The anvil is much too low otherwise, you break your back bent double. I cast a block which was one level throughout with the exception of a socket for the anvil and then added a frame of 5" timber to support the hammer body and motor, the works plan for a separate motor block seemed like an incredible complication. Best wishes, Alan X-From_: mspencer Wed Apr 2 05:35:25 2008 Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 01:09:43 -0300 From: mspencer To: evans Subject: Update Re: Alldays and Onions Hi Alan -- Some years ago you generously sent me numerous PDFs and proffered advice regarding my Alldays & Onions hammer. Well, the shop is built and in use, the hammer installed, mostly disassembled, cleaned, repaired, reassembled and tested. Some pics can be found at: http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/shop/alldays.htmli and other pages linked from there. The hammer works. Great! But the power plant shown (remove cats from lap, put aside tea or other beverages; I don't want to have to buy you a new keyboard :-) that my son & I rigged up for testing purposes was far too dangerous and in any event was running flat out all the time. So now I've been -- what? 3 years? -- finding various candidates, trying things out and not having much success. Bought a big industrial engine, perfect for the purpose, for scrap price but then determined that parts were no longer available to repair it. Tried a 24HP, 4-cylinder Wisconsin industrial petrol engine that was perfect in every regard except that it proved to have too little power once I opened the valve to lift the tup. Other more bizarre experiments. Now I'm beating the bushes for a used diesel engine that's within my budget, close enough that I don't have to drive 10 hours each way to pick it up and that can be seen running. More difficult than I expected. I'm about 10 years too late, most such engines formerly used here in sawmills, rock crushers and the like having been retired and sent to the scrap yard about that long ago. As you advised, I set the anvil on some pieces of industrial conveyor belt and caulked around it with sealer. Regrettably, the sealer has broken loose and water has surely seeped under the anvil base. I'll have to figure out what to do about that when I finally get a power plant in place. Regards, - Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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