mitch4ging Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 ^^^ +1. Want to try it. Been chicken. You guys are encouraging. Keep it coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Oh, glad to hear it guys! Please post , the more the merrier. Dave, I have not found any to try yet either. But will try it for sure. I think I went through about a dozen billets as well before I started to get a handle on the cracking. I know I have said it before, but really be careful moving it when there is not enough heat, that was by far my biggest issue. I am guessing you want to make bolsters and guards? Mitch, just start with a $1.50 or so. I found it fairly forgiving and cheap. Give me a bit and I will post my first basic steps for you to see in a new topic. Nothing to shy away from for sure. The basic form was wayyyyyy easier for me than my first forge weld with mild steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 On my first try I used 12 quarters and made a set of "clamping tongs" 3/8 thick plates 3x3 with 5/16 stainless bolts in each corner to squeeze the stack together while heating and 1/4 round rod welded to 1 for a handle. A piece of paper at each end to keep the stack from sticking to the plates. I just washed the quarters with dawn then soaked them in vinegar and into the propane forge it went. I was watching it waiting to see the stack look "wet". I was just starting to pull it out when the stack kind of squished a little and the copper started to ooze out, oops maybe a little too long! I took it straight over to the press and while still in the clamp put a little more pressure on the stack. When I removed the clamp I was surprised that it had all stayed together. I started to work it into a small billet and let it get too cold and got some cracking on the edges but not too bad. Being my first attempt I played around with it trying some different things and in end I just formed what was left into a couple scroll shaped ear rings. I will try and get some posted. Are the old Eisenhower dollar coins the same cupro nickle composition? I havn't been to Vegas for 20 years do they still use them for the dollar slots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 We're NOT bored with the subject Tristan. I haven't had anything to add and am too shy to join in anyway. I don't know if they're still nearly pure nickel but Canadian dimes, quarters, etc. make for nice nickel additions to Mokume. Somewhere in the shop I have a piece of mokume sheet made from Canadian quarters and roofing copper I was going to make into a forge shovel but got sidetracked. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Looks like Ike (if it's a copper core visible on the edge) is the same composition as the quarter and halves. Last few times to Vegas over the last 5 or so years has shown that most of the places have switched to those E ticket machines, you might be able to find hard currency in play towards state line (buffalo bills maybe?) though. I bought a bunch of precut disks in silver, red bronze(I think), regular brass, and nickel so I could try some 'real' metals without all the overhead of cutting and cleaning. Have yet to put them in the fire though = they are 1" diameter I think, so still small billet size unfortunately, but larger precut sheet metal blanks have eluded me so far, especially in rectangle or square. If anything I think using clean new real sheet metal stock is actually easier to bond than the quarters, but the quarters are cheaper per unit mass (last time I did the math anyway), uniformly cut to size, and don't really require much in the way of prep, so you could probably get off 3 billets of QSOkume in the same time it would take to do one traditional mokume stack. And if you can skill up on a more difficult weld then the easier one is a breeze :) I need to make a run to the bank in the near future myself, must remember to bring several rolls of quarters and try to horse trade my way into halves or fulls :-D Edit: beaten by frosty! I AM getting old ;) A mokume shovel from coin stock diameter?? Tiny shovel or humongous starting stack?! Or multiple stacks re-welded together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Here are a couple of pictures "Clamping Tongs" Whatchamathingamabob earings? I keep meaning to try this again but................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Any particular reason you went with two handles on your plates frozenforge? The earrings look fun :) just need the hardware and you are in business! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I thought about that right after I put the 2nd one on! I must admit I am a slave to making things symetrical or if there are multiples of an item I have to force myself to stop trying to make them identical to each other. When I first finished the ear ring things I didnt like the fact that they were not the same size. After letting them sit for a few months when I looked at them again it didnt bother me at all! It does seem to be a common theme in the forum that alot of us are very critical of ourselves and what we make but everyone seems to turn that into motivation to learn and practice. Sadly a characteristic that seems to be slowly disappearing:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastRonin Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Also must add to the NOT bored tally. Planning on trying to do something mokume before too long, just got my first propane forge to an operational state, so now need to find time to enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Good job frozen, looks like they turned out nice. Been doing much more? There is something to be said for a heavy clamp. I made mine small so I could go in the small 2" bore of my little forge and not waste $ on gas. I also like doing the initial weld in a vice, keeps my thin clamp from getting bent. Frosty I would love to see that shovel. You should finish it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Mitch, sorry I didn't realize you already posted your first piece. I will start another thread for others as I made a small piece last night and took a few pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Good job frozen, looks like they turned out nice. Been doing much more? There is something to be said for a heavy clamp. I made mine small so I could go in the small 2" bore of my little forge and not waste $ on gas. I also like doing the initial weld in a vice, keeps my thin clamp from getting bent. Frosty I would love to see that shovel. You should finish it! Could you elaborate on making the initial weld in a vice and what type of clamp you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 i will for sure . I went out last night and made a billet and snapped a few pictures. but i am stuck at work right now. will post it later. short version- I used some 1-1/4 x 1/8 flat strap and a couple small bolts. just enough to hold it together while heating. once hot I used the vice to make the weld. which does two things. it protects the cheesy clamp from massive damage a hammer would do and it makes for a very even weld across the whole stack. that even pressure really helps, especially for someone new to smithing with under developed hammer control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 It's a quick and dirty 'press' substitute. If you overcooked your billet you should wait for it to cool enough to re solidify as you need to have the stack on its side to put it in the vise (in a normal mounting configuration) and you don't want to watch your whole stack slide/drip out when you turn it :). Similarly it is possible to squeeze lower melting point alloys entirely out of your stack if they are liquid-y when you press it (sooo irritating...) Edit: curse this phone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 That is the voice of experience speaking. my vise i just far enough away to spare me that issue... so far.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 A very good resource for this is "Mokume Gane" by Ian Ferguson under Krause Publications. Very informative with charts and pictures of different compatabilities of metals and their bonding temperatures and atmosphere required for bonding. Pictures of the combinations after bonding as well. For the scientist among us it talks about what happens at the molecular level with the bonding of the metals. The gallery at the end shows some extemely talented work Hope I didnt break any rules by listing the books author and publisher if you had read the other reply's, you would have seen that others mentioned it already, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 Could you elaborate on making the initial weld in a vice and what type of clamp you use?Here is a picture of the clamp.and I like to roll the coins up in masking tape to glad them in place while I clamp them. Saves a lot of trouble and it burns right off. Don't get it on the face though. I also like to make the pattern with a die grinder And the finished material I made it without cleaning them, pocket fuzz and all. But I recommend cleaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 A very good resource for this is "Mokume Gane" by Ian Ferguson under Krause Publications. Very informative with charts and pictures of different compatabilities of metals and their bonding temperatures and atmosphere required for bonding. Pictures of the combinations after bonding as well. For the scientist among us it talks about what happens at the molecular level with the bonding of the metals. The gallery at the end shows some extemely talented work Hope I didnt break any rules by listing the books author and publisherif you had read the other reply's, you would have seen that others mentioned it already, I don't think there are rules against sharing published works, there is an entire subforum for it, 'book reviews' as well. And Mr. Mod, I think you are confusing this thread with Mad Rabit's thread asking for resources. This has been pretty cut and dried discussion of technical details and techniques, references have not come up yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Looking good teeny :) Have you considered using at least 3 bolts on your setup? It is probably moot if you are running short stacks like you have pictured, but if you run stacks that are taller than they are wide and are only using two bolts you run the risk of the stack not being centered well enough between the bolts, which can cause the plates to rack and come out of parallel, which in turn can unbalance the stack and open up gaps on the side experiencing less compression. Which as you are already familiar with, will allow oxygen to penetrate the weld and then you are done :'( The masking tap trick I actually just learned in October from Bill Medel, and boy is THAT a step up from anything else!! He recommended using a scrap of angle iron as a rail to line the quarters up and make taping them up easier. I think his had a little tab welded onto the bottom that could be put in a vice and have the angle sit like a V so gravity will keep your coins in place without needing your hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch4ging Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Teeny, no I have not made anything yet, with life and all that... Also, in a thread a couple below this one under " first crack..", Chinobi has a nice clamp I was going to rob if you have not seen it. It has a 4 bolt design. Frozen, great earings! Hope my wife has not spyed them yet...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 teenylittlemetalguy - Thanks for the pics, that helps a bunch. If I am picturing the vice weld step correctly, you would just need to space the bolts so that they do not contact your vice jaws. I have also been wondering about the pattern creation, the angle grinder notches cleared that up also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 Chinobi, you make a very valid point, and I do like your clamp it looks robust, I really just wanted newbies to see they don't have to make a nice clamp to get it done, but they are nice. I initially used a 4 bolt clamp before I used tape but in my smallest forge (that I prefer to run) the smaller the clamp the bigger the stack, so I carefully use just 2 bolts. It has worked well for me but have not used it for anything more than about $2.50 or so. When I do a bigger stack I put it (with flattened faces) in a c clamp and run a TIG weld up 2 sides. Then without a clamp in the fire at all I have made as large as a $10 stack. Eddie, yes the bolts must clear, if your jaws are very thick the thin stock may not be enough support and you may need thicker plates, but you could still make the first weld or two in the vise. It made it much easier on me to use the vise. I just use a table to line up the coins when I apply tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Thanks gents, I can't take credit for the plate design though, better men than myself figured that one out, I'm just spreading the word :) Also, I had occasion to do some banking this morning and I tried to change several rolls of quarters for half dollars. The said they can do it but they don't keep them on hand and would need to order them in for me. Do if your banks don't stock them try asking them to order some from the reserve before you try a different branch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 What about a rolling mill to flatten them out before stacking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 I actually do use a small roller mill now, it saves time and does a better job then hammering. I just don't want to make anyone think it is required as it is not. Hammering them works as well. Someday I will build a powered hot roll mill as well for forging them that would really speed this up immensely. Chinobi, I also had to order 1/2 dollars. The teller told me that the are popular during the holidays? I don't understand that, but I did just get some. Hopefully I can try them early tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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