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Ferrous Rated Crucibles


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I've been doing a little digging trying to find ferrous rated crucibles, and I haven't had much luck. I've found a company by the name of Morgan Advanced Materials that make crucibles and some ferrous rated ones. Most of the ones I've found on other sites are rated for 3000 F, and I don't know how well the ones that are will stand up to a solid fuel fire and not a gas furnace.  What do you guys use to melt steel? 

 

The reason I'm asking is I'm one of those people who wants to try doing just about everything so I know how it is done. That's the bottom line. I was planning on experimenting with making crucible steel just to understand the processes and chemistry that goes into making steel. 

 

I understand and acknowledge the inherent dangers of molten metal, especially that of molten steel, but all the same I wish to continue on in my quest to make crucible steel. Yes, I will take all the precautions necessary to avoid harming myself or putting myself or others in a dangerous situation.

 

 

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http://www.lmine.com/category/graphite_crucible.html

 

I've gotten several crucibles from these guys. The budget graphite are rated to 3000F. I haven't tried crucible steel but I plan to. I've used them for Aluminum, Brass, and cast Iron. They hold up well. I would coat the inside with clay or something to reduce the amount of Carbon that is pulled from the crucible.

 

I've read that the molten steel eats through the graphite crucible. I don't know if this is a real thing or just something that someone just said to say it. I'll have to look into that closer.

The other reason I want to shy away from the graphite crucibles is that they do add a small amount of carbon to the steel. That may mess me at the beginning as I start out making my own steel. I'd prefer some sort of fire clay crucible or a fire clay graphite mix. I have only done a little homework into this (30 minutes at most) so more is required before I choose a crucible type to use.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I don't remember the temp rating on ITC-100 would that be a possible inner coating?

 

Jacob: There's a good reason nobody's replying to this request. Messing with molten metal is deadly serious business deserving of careful research before one's first attempt, NOT something to jump into with iron. Responsible folk on Iforge who know the answers have given this kid about all the info they can in good conscience, up to and including just what and where to buy the proper crucibles. So far he evidently hasn't followed up on any. And now he's trying to guilt someone who laid out exactly what he uses as a crucible in a commercially broadcast program.

 

Now you are GUESSING about how to handle molten iron! Will you be able to look yourself in a mirror if someone uses one of your GUESSES and injures or kills him/er self? Maybe takes someone else or the family home with?

 

I know you want to help and I give you props for your efforts but brother this stuff is deadly dangerous, not a time to try figuring it out. This isn't the first time you've made faulty guesses but most other times the results would just be wasted effort for the person taking the advise. Please use some sense and do less guessing in your rush to be helpful.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Jacob: There's a good reason nobody's replying to this request. Messing with molten metal is deadly serious business deserving of careful research before one's first attempt, NOT something to jump into with iron. Responsible folk on Iforge who know the answers have given this kid about all the info they can in good conscience, up to and including just what and where to buy the proper crucibles. So far he evidently hasn't followed up on any. And now he's trying to guilt someone who laid out exactly what he uses as a crucible in a commercially broadcast program.

Now you are GUESSING about how to handle molten iron! Will you be able to look yourself in a mirror if someone uses one of your GUESSES and injures or kills him/er self? Maybe takes someone else or the family home with?

I know you want to help and I give you props for your efforts but brother this stuff is deadly dangerous, not a time to try figuring it out. This isn't the first time you've made faulty guesses but most other times the results would just be wasted effort for the person taking the advise. Please use some sense and do less guessing in your rush to be helpful.

Frosty The Lucky.


There was no guess, or recommendation. I asked a question.
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Little Dog,

There are several reasons I have not answered your questions.

One is I do not know who you are...no name. I like to know to whom I am speaking.

Many people have avatar names and there are good reasons for this, but I prefer to be me all the time.

 

Second...the request for info you sent to me asked for a "brain dump" on furnace design and crucibles......I am all for helping folk, but I teaching via letters is problematic and this is one of the reasons I teach classes. I am not saying to need to take a class from me or anyone else....many very good smiths are self taught.

 

Crucibles have been made for steel melting for many centuries and the recipes for them are posted in many books and articles related to the work in Sheffield, England and Deccan, India. It has been stated on the net that I use both clay graphite and silicon carbide....as well as ones I make myself from various clays and additives...just like past smiths.

 

Since I am the first ten listings on Google when you search "Ric Furrer" I find your question on how to contact me rather telling. You do not appear to be interested in doing much research on your own...this may become an issue in the future...especially when you have several pounds of 3,000F liquid steel spills or ejects from the crucible.

 

I do not mean to be harsh, but what you are interested in doing can go bad quickly and you may wish to start with aluminum or bronze and work up from there.

 

Ric

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Ric Furrer,

 

I understand the need to know who you are dealing with. That is understandable. My name is Clayton Mabey.The request I sent was asking for suggestions and help, in effect it was asking for a "brain dump" as you accurately called it.

 

I am new to blacksmithing, I started in June this year, and it sounds stupid to attempt making steel when at such a beginner level, and for most people they would wait, I don't rush things. I took several months to finally settle on a forge design and then build it. I'm not looking to run head first and blind into this matter, I'm a careful and precise individual who will do the same thing over and over until it is done right. I'm systematic in everything I do, making sure I've done all the prep work before I attempt to do something. Making steel is inherently dangerous and I'm only interested in gearing up to do so and waiting to make any until I feel that I'm ready and able to handle any situation. If that means to start at aluminum then by all means I will do it. Being experienced in something reduces the chances of an accident occurring.

 

I have found several books on crucible making and have bought them, I'm just waiting to receive them. As far as research goes, that is something that I excel at. One thing I try to avoid is the same pitfalls that someone else fell into, that was why I contacted you. You have been making you own steel for a while now and no doubt you have discovered things that work and don't work. Learning of those things helps me progress faster. I don't like to rely on other people for anything, I want to as independent as I can. I know it doesn't seem to be the case, but I don't know you and you don't know me.

 

You have the right to be harsh because you know of the dangers and would rather that I don't embark in this course until I am absolutely ready. 

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I attended Ric's demo of 3 methods of making steel at Quad-State one year:  Blister, oroshigane, and crucible steel.  In addition as soon as I got home---even before I took my jacket off, I snapped up a used copy of "Steelmaking before Bessemer, vol 1 blister steel, vol 2 crucible steel".  His demo was worth the entire expense of attending Quad-State!

 

With many things "direct" transmission still works better than indirect.  I would also say that *making* steel is not inherently dangerous as *MELTING* steel---was that a typo?

 

(I took a thin walled steel pipe, flattened and bent over one end filled it with powdered charcoal and stuck pieces of wrought iron into it and flattened the other end of the pipe and crimped it with a bit of "give" available to deal with temperature expansion.  I then placed this piece inside my gas forge along a side and chalked how many hours it spent at glowing while I was working on other projects.  Simple, cheap, easy way of going from low carbon to quite high carbon indeed!  And worked much more effectively than taking large thick walled pipe, lining it with a thick clay layer, filling with charcoal and WI sealing the ends and throwing it in a large bonfire---much higher carbon content when I used the gas forge----BTW may I comment to your attention "The Cementation of Iron and Steel" as an in depth work on making steel through carbon migration---you can use diamonds you know...)

 

 

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Before reading this post, forget I am staff, the following is something I feel a need to say, and I doubt the Owner, Glenn Conner would post this himself.   I am only an experianced smith, that happens to have worked with liquid metals, including steel more than a few times.  ok ?

 

One problem we have today, at least in the United States, is the school system has changed.  We no longer have any losers in sports, we are all winners now.  We no longer tell a student they are wrong, or stand them in the corner for not paying attention.  As a result, many are taught to think all ideas are valid and they can do as they please.  I say this is not true.   Some ideas are lame, others are stupid, some can be deadly.  Very few ideas are accurate without proper training and experiance to guide those ideas.  Much of the time, we are do not guess correctly, and liquid steel is not forgiving of mistakes.

 

Add in the problem of cold text on a page making information exchange hard.  Then we have the issues of the people who are too lazy to try to really research, prefering to just dive in and maybe ask about it later, then refusing to pay attention to what is linked for them, wanting a softer easier way, now add in the superman mentality so many get while hiding behind a keyboard, now add the molten steel, and very fast someone dies.  and to be honest, the lack of basic "pay attention" skills many show makes me not want to be anywhere near them.

 

I do not care how careful you think you are.  Many full time workers at steel mills and foundries have much more experiance and training than we do, and they have much better monitoring and safety equipment, and they still have fatal accidents, so dont say it can't happen to me, the only proper statement is to say that It has not hapened to me YET.  Molten steel is not like aluminum or casting lead shot or fishing weights, and I had better be wearing the proper gear to allow me to survive when a mistake does happen.

 

I felt a need to post this warning, because people need to hear it.  I will get off my soap box now, but I will keep my flame proof suit on, because there is always an armchair expert ready to argue anything.

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You're right, Steve about the school systems changing and the no losers. I live in a small rural town just outside of Idaho Falls. No more than 600 people call Ririe home, and most of those that do are farmers and no nonsense people. When the “no loser policy” came a lot of people liked it. Now no one would feel bad about losing a game. There was no distinction between the winners and the losers, and when this occurs winning becomes a mediocrity.
I’m a senior in high school and though I’m not that old I remember when the trophies and medals were only handed out to the winners, and the losers had nothing to show except for a loss. I played football and basketball on those losing teams for many years and even though those days are gone I still remember the lessons that losing taught me. If you want to be the best at something you have to put in the time to get there. If you let someone hold your hand and teach you what you want to know it doesn’t mean anything. Knowledge comes with a price, and if it’s free it isn't worth much if anything.
 
I don’t believe that in a classroom setting there is such a thing as a dumb question. If you are the only one who doesn't understand a concept even though you've tried hard to get it and you ask the “dumb” question, you are doing the right thing for yourself, trying to learn at your pace. However, with that being said in the real world there are such things as dumb questions and stupid things that people do. The classroom is where we learn and the world is where we apply what we learn.
 
My grandfather is a self taught gunsmith and metalsmith. He builds large model trains and makes all the parts himself, whether he has to weld them or cast them. He has always told me for as long as I can remember, learn everything you can about everything.
 
My generation has been branded with what many of us truly deserve. The generation that gets everything handed to them on silver platter. I resent that brand. I take learning very seriously, and I push myself to do better than I’ve done before. I’m not one who shoots for the moon and is fine when I don’t make it off the earth. If I wanted that, I wouldn't be going to college to be an astrophysicist. I come from a family where you shoot for the moon and hope you soar far beyond it. My generation has only a few that push themselves like I do while our peers stand still watching us soar on by.
 
I understand danger of liquid metal, especially at 3000F, but I still want to learn how to make my own steel. There are dangers in life and they’re not equally distributed or proportioned. It is always a necessity to be prepared for the worst and not the best. We hope for the best but prepare and expect the worst. I don’t disagree with anything that has been said before about the danger of molten metal, and the lack of knowledge and experience going into something like this. Some things are exponentially more dangerous than others and molten metal is one of those things that reaches to top of the list of dangerous things to try. All I want to know is how to make steel to be a specific carbon content give or take a few percent. If I decide the theoretical is all I need, then I won’t try to actually make steel. I’m a leatherworker by trade and a writer by design. I always ask those questions that others give caution to, and there is always reason for it.

You guys are the reason I first came to this site because of all the things you know. this place is an archive of knowledge for people like me, and I just want to say thank you for all the advice I've been given.

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Dog, if what you posted is your true feelings,  then I am impressed, and I applaud you.  I will do everytihgn I can to help you learn.  I fear the many that come here, not paying attention, demanding their rights, then we never heard form them again,  wondering if they gave up, were only trolling, or died in the attempt.

 

 I am with Thomas, the Tatara is the safest way to start, and it is very efffective.

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I appreciate what you guys have said, and I thank you. I will start with the Tartara. Safety is the most important thing when doing something dangerous, and all of you have stressed that quite a bit, which is good thing.

I'll look into the Japanese Tartara furnace in depth and start designing and getting ready to build one for use in the spring.

 

I never have the intent of trolling people, and if what I have said came across that way I am sorry. I hate it when people do that to me, everyone hates it and so I don't troll. As far as paying attention, I do my best to do so. I have respect for hot metal and other dangerous things that go along with blacksmithing. My fourth time forging I dropped my piece and went to pick it up automatically, it was no longer red but it was still very hot. Needless to say I got burned badly and never did that again (I also went out and bought welding gloves to avoid future re-occurrences). If I've never done anything before, I treat it like I would a rattlesnake, and not try anything stupid that could get me killed or seriously hurt. I try to keep my wits about me.

 

All that aside, you guys have been down the road that I want to travel down and you have recommended a starting point. You know what you are doing and I don't, so I will start with Tartara and move on as I progress. Thanks for your input, Especially Steve and Thomas. 

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For Tatara you wish to look for the work of Mr. Akira Kihara. I would say he was my teacher, but that would presume he had taken me on as his student...which he did not.

He came to Minneapolis, Minnesota some years ago and did two weeks of smelting and the Art Prof there Wayne Potratz has done many smelts in the US and Japan.

 

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Thanks for the video, Ric. It gave me a feel for what I'm looking to make and do. I will go on a hunt for the works of Mr. Akira Kihara. Also while I was looking on the internet for information on the Tartara I came across a furnace called the Aristotle furnace, developed by Skip Williams and Lee Sauder. I am intrigued with their furnace design. It is simple and is scaled to the proper size for small scale experimentation. I will probably build a few of these furnaces to develop my skills and technique before I build a Tartara.

 

I have a feeling that my parents would rather not have a Tartara in the backyard, but the Era of the Tartara will come in due time.  :D

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I've been forging ferrous metal for nigh on to 52 years, and I confess ignorance about the reduction or smelting of the metal. About 40 years ago, a couple of friends and I made a "tatara" type of furnace (before internet) and we used New Mexico magnetite which can be found as black sand in many of our dry stream beds. We made charcoal for fuel. We wound up with some black siliceous chunks, no iron that we could discern. I assumed that we had not enough air blast and that the ore might have been low grade. Furthermore, our timing may have been off. I realized too, that there is lots of chemistry involved, and in high school, I avoided chemistry like the plague. I remained curious about iron production, but was busy smithing, so I never pursued it further physically, just read about it. I would recommend reading Robert B. Gordon's book, American Iron 1607-1900. He talks about the crucible steel method and has a photo of a puller-out man handling a heavy crucible on the jacket cover of the book. The book is technical but is also an enjoyable history of what happened on our side of the pond.

 

I applaud Clayton Mabey for his crafting of the English language.

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Careful. These guys'll give you an expensive book habit.  Amazon becomes you're friend, and check into inter-library loans. Only way I can come close to keeping up with some of em. (oooh, that rush though! So worth it.) Don't worry though, the first taste (online e-books) is free! :P

 

Thomas Powers in particular can smell a 800 dollar metallurgy book going into a second hand 5 dollar bargain bin at distances up to 56 miles. On the other hand, everything he recommends that I can get ahold of turns out to be awesome. :D

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