Fabreeka

[Dillon Sculpture]

Anybody installed or installing Fabreeka fabsorb? I know they sell the 2'x9' and 4'x9' sheet but I only need 2'x2' 

 

Thanks,

[basher]

I have it under my 200 weight, and was lucky enough to get a cast off  "Ta john". I cant reference it against any of my other hammers exactly as the 200 also has a purpose built separate foundation . but it works very well.

 I have used rubber and conveyer belt and the segmented anti vibration rubber and not noticed good results from them. Ie still feel the smaller hammers through the floor.

 It is a very interesting material, looks a bit like plasticised mdf . I use the corner off cuts as a dead blow material to put under hand hammer handles when I am wedging them up . it kills rebound instantly.

 There must be someone on your side of the pond with an off cut.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Thanks Owen, It defiantly looks like the cats meow. Im hoping to find a bit but if not I'll have extra for the next hammer :D

[Alan Evans]

I have not heard of Fabsorb before. Any idea how it compares with the Tico products from James Walker? That was what Davey (who used to be the Massey engineers in the 1990ies before John took over) recommended for my 3cwt. It was about 12-15mm (1/2"-5/8") thick I think.

The mat under the anvil block had to be sealed with a pourable silicone rubber to ensure no water got in between it and the concrete. Evidently if there was any trapped water it could then shatter the concrete...one had to use a broad gaffer type tape as a release which prevented the silicone from attaching close to the mat where it could shear with the movement. The silicone only adhered to a band between 50mm and 100mm (2" and 4") up the side of the anvil block and then on the side of the anvil pit. Does the Fabsorb have the same complications/characteristics?

Alan

[nonjic]

Ive not used the Fabreeka Fabsorb under a hammer anvil. I do not think it is the right material for that application (check with them) I think 'Fabsorb' is  more of an open cell foam material.

 

The Fabreeka nitrile pad, and James walkers Tico equiv. ( ? RF/PA from memory) are very similar materials, priced very similar.

 

Owen, the blue stuff (technical name) under your hammer is from a used foundation mat from under a drop hammer that was at Bae Systems or somewhere like that, in the dim and distant past. We salvaged the mat (it was a big one 10'x 6' ish) - sadly all used up now, ive got the very last of it under my 2cwt. Word at the time was that it made the fabreeka look cheap ! Never seen one like it since.

 

Lots of technical information available to download from Fabreeka's website.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Thanks guys, I have sent in my hammer info for engineering to see what will work best. They also said Fabsorb is not the right application just trying to make my way through all the info on their site... 

Voss Engineering also makes a similar product called Sorbtex.

[ianinsa]

This stuff makes for interesting reading! :) 

 

Sorry I don't have any constructive input.

[lupiphile]

Mr.Dillon

         I too am interested as to what you find. The last time I investigated the stuff, they quoted me like 1800 dollars for a 3'x3' mat.

I thought that more than a little excessive for a170lb hammer that cost 4 grand. I am about (well in early spring) to install a 300lb chambersburg utility hammer  and I'll definitly need to do something for the vibration, but where I'm slighty concerned is about the effect such a vibration deadening pad would have on a hammer with such a skimpy anvil to tup ratio. We as blacksmiths try to overcome this with many yards of concrete in a hole,but it seems to me, by thoroughly uncoupling  the anvil from that base with a wonder product, we might significantly diminishing our returns in the forging arena. Any thoughts? I'm sure Alan and John will chime in with multi-hundred word articulate responses that will answer everyone's questions, and I will thank them in advance, here. Take Care, Matt

[Dillon Sculpture]

The data doesn't mention any waste of rebound that I could find, but does show the wave of vibration significantly reduced? I'm hoping to get the Monster deal, 1/3 the price... When Larry installed his Nazel he got a deal, we'll see  B)

 

Congrats on the new hammer Matt!

[Ric Furrer]

I'm curious as well Michael.........as I I may have a 1K hammer to set up here.

Ric

[Dillon Sculpture]

What! Thought you gave up, must have been some serious negotiation going on. Perhaps we all can get a better price pulling our resources together?

[lupiphile]

Workers of the world, UNITE!

[patrick]

We've used Fabreeka under our hammers a work for years, BUT that is the top layer in a 4' thick stack of white oak timber on top of a concerte foundation. All the anvils on those hammers are independant and the anvil mass is what resists the blow and delivers energy to the work piece. The fabreeka and timber serve to cushion everything and promote less broken parts. I'd be surprized if, for hammers under 500 lbs (maybe even bigger) the Fabreeka gives you much improvement over a thick timber mat. I have 10" of white oak under my Bradley and a 5' thick foundation under that. No noticeable vibration much beyond the shop, though that likely is also related to soil conditions and water table position too.

[lupiphile]

Hey Patrick,

                  That's heartening to hear, though I do suspect soil matters a whole lot. My 170 utility hammer, has a 20 to 1 anvil ratio,on  1 inch of horse stall mat, on a 3 x3 foot inertia block, isolated from my floor slab, and my neighbor 40' away has things fall off her shelves in her kitchen. I'm pretty sure all of philadelphia was raised out from the miasma, of the steamy dark ages, on a mountain of coal slag. To willfully paraphrase W.C. Fields "on the hole I'd rather be in fill-adelphia" .Having a shop built on slag probably does something for my blacksmith credentials but sure is a pain for the installation of impact equipment..... 

                As to my previous question about decreased forging efficiency, I was able to notice a decrease in effective power when I put a horse stall mat under my hammer, previously it was on white oak on that aforementioned cube of concrete. The bottom die also became much more bouncy, though I definitely improved my neighbors well being. Granted fabreeka is supposed to be a whole different animal. Also have any of you tried mounting a hammer on end grain? Like is depicted for drop hammers, in that summer-vacation, beach-reading classic "Machinery Foundations" that Mr.Dillon thoughtfully provided a link to in the steam hammer thread? I also really like that foundation that was posted a while back that cushioned the inertia block with rubber, that seems kinda like the best of both worlds, provided that your hammer was under about 500lbs or so.

            Mr. Dillon,  I know someone with a fair amount of strange large industrial experience and they new of that sorbtex stuff, they said they had it mounted under all the cranes in the "impact shop" at the shipyard. I really am not sure if that means anything to us or not. I imagine its cheaper than fabreeka though. I mean cost to weight ratio, fabreeka is as expensive as the work I sell.....and I sure can't afford anything I make. Take care, Matt

[Dillon Sculpture]

I happen to sit on a granite mountain! The 1" Sortex came in at $325 a sq. foot, I haven't got a price from Fabreeka yet. I like the idea of timbers on end, probably much stiffer than on the side but you have to figure a way to hod them together? What is the manufacture of your 170 utility Matt? 

[lupiphile]

Ouch, 325 a foot, huh? Rubber under the inertia block, it is for me then. My idea for holding them all together would be to run welded mesh and pour crete' all around the whole mess so the inertia block would have the wood embeded. maybe with some strapping pre-crete'?

          Thanks for the congratulations on the hammer. I was looking for a tight one piece, in the 400-500lb for less than 4000$ delivered, but that there seems to be a bit of a pipe dream, so a 300 it is, I imagine it'll forge a bottle opener ok......

 I found a place local-ish to me that converts decommissioned propane tanks to air tanks( steam cleans, paints, welds fittings,and gets them pressure certified) 1000$ for a 1000 gallons, sounds good to me.

           My 170 utility, is a phoenix hammer that I've heavily modified, or rather heavily tuned,tweaked and fettled. Its a weird hammer, the anvil is about the same size as my 2-b, without the 2.5" plate that is welded to the bottom.  I suppose calling a phoenix hammer, a utility hammer is like calling drywall, sheetrock but you get the gist.

          If your king fly on granite mountain, why the wonder mat? I mean pour a base right on that puppy and have the largest anvil to tup ratio ever recorded!. Take care, Matt

[Alan Evans]

Well I never! What strange things some people give house room to for 25 years...

 

 

If this is becoming a general chat about independent anvil support, the reason I went for the mat rather than cross layered timbers was that I had heard about the timber crushing over the years until it became impossible to reface the pallets back to parallel. I could not face the prospect of having to try and get the hammer and anvil out again in order to renew the timber. The downsides were the need to seal to prevent water getting any where near the mat and that James Walker's could not help with the design of the anvil pit and arrangement of the foundation bolts relative to the Silicone sealant. They had designed the system for Massey hammers and not Alldays, the difference being that the Alldays' foundation bolts run very close to the anvil base. I had to invent a tubular sleeve to enclose the bolt which would move with the anvil and the silicone could seal to that rather than the bolt itself where it would risk shearing.

 

Alan

 

p.s. Sorry I tried half a dozen times to get a sharper image uploaded but for some reason it kept being reduced to fuzzy!

[lupiphile]

Wait are you saying we could drop your name and get 25 year old pricing? Fantasic!.! You're like the informational gift that keeps on giving.,,,,,,,,, So you used the fabreeka straight over the concrete, huh? I suppose that makes more sense(as opposed to on top of timbers, then concrete). What by chance is your opinion on the cushioning of the entire inertia block? Take care, Matt

[nonjic]

There are 2 separate subjects going on here...... I will briefly clarify as to my understanding.

 

1 - We put Fabreeka  (type) pad directly underneath the anvil, as a sandwich layer between anvil and concrete. This pad serves 2 purposes. It knocks out some of the extremely low frequency vibration, and it stops the concrete turning to mush. The pad is a replacement for a layer of timbers. The pads is very dense, 90+ shore (you can dent it with your fingernail 'just about' kind of density.

 

2 - The materials like ' fabsorb' are placed as an isolating material between the hammers concrete inertia block and the surrounding ground. (Again, to my understanding) the 'fabsorb' is something like an open cell foam, with very low load bearing capacity. It is used like a void filler, in conjunction with a denser material (similar to cork) that takes much more of the weight of the concrete inertia block that the hammer and anvil are mounted to.

The purpose of this 'secondary' isolation is to attenuate the transmission of vibration from the concrete inertia block to the surrounding ground. Done properly this has the additional benefit of converting the dynamic loading on the underlying ground (usually a concrete slab itself), into more of a static loading - obviously a massive benefit in some circumstances as it will reduce settling of the whole installation over time.

 

If both of the above are done correctly the entire mass will 'squat' a mm or two when the hammer strikes a blow, you wont even notice it. Done badly (frequency of isolators and hammer 'out') you can get all kind of strange things happening. From 'bouncy hammer' syndrome' to much much worse.

 

Makes me smile when people say 'stick a bit of horse stall mat under it, it will be just as good' , as it wont. Doing it properly can cost big !

 

(ive put in a dozen + hammers to 7000 lb ram on isolated foundations over the years, and many more on standard foundations, by way of my c.v ! :) )

[Dillon Sculpture]

John, there are some comparison charts on the Sorbtex  site  http://structuralbearingpads.vossengineering.com/Asset/Sorbex-Technical-Manual.PDF

 

Cork seems to be right up there and a 4'x8'x1/4" sheet is $50. Would you consider this a viable option? 

[Dillon Sculpture]

Fabreeka came in at $475 a sq. foot! Ouch

[Alan Evans]

Have you contacted James Walker? They have a couple of offices in the states. Worth a try, though I guess they are all operating in the same market and prices are going to be similar-ish.

My anvil pad and the sealant cost more than my hammer and the transport to get it home combined...the concrete inertia block underneath probably cost more than what is on top of it!

The anvil has never moved in the 25 odd years it has been tapping. It did make my eyes water at the time but it has been a case of fit it and forget it.

I will dig out some of the illustrations of various hammer anvil installation designs if they may be useful...

Alan

[Dillon Sculpture]

Thanks Alan, I did try and get some info from them and have had no reply yet, too small of a fish I suppose. Do you have any thoughts about using cork?

[lupiphile]

John- Thanks for bringing the gavel of information down on my spectulation, I do just love that , all the answers and then some.

 

Mr.Dillon- maybe we could take a mortgage out on our hammers for their respective foundations. Whats that expression used in politics?" stealing stones from your foundation to build your roof"

 

Alan- archived pictures of hammer installations ? yes please!  Take care, matt

[Alan Evans]

Thanks Alan, I did try and get some info from them and have had no reply yet, too small of a fish I suppose. Do you have any thoughts about using cork?

They should be interested, their pond is quite small when you think about it. There can't be that many companies installing a factory full of drop hammers in any given week!

I read that info you posted which showed cork as being about half as effective as the sorbtex(?) I have read elsewhere that cork bound in rubber is used in some vibration damping solutions...

The conclusion I came to though (both now and 25 years ago) is if there was a cheap alternative that is what mainstream industry would use. I am sure you can get away with conveyor belt, the horse stall mats or cork in many instances. But if yours happens to be one where it doesn't work out, how much will it cost to do over?

Prior to the employment of these high tech mats the cross stacked timber was used for hundreds of years and was effective enough to enable the industrial revolution to happen!

The advantage of a specifically calculated pad for the application is that you won't get the pallets going out of line if the timber shrinks or expands and you will get optimum resilience to the impact and therefore most efficiency.

Given that as artist blacksmiths the number of hours that our hammers are actually thumping is probably less than 5% of an industrial production machine I guess it is not nearly so critical. If the pallets need redressing to parallel every year in industry because of timber movement ours will need it every 20 years.....if the timbers are replaced every ten years in industry....

If I was not going to use the purpose designed mat I would go back to the previous industry standard of stacked timber as per the original manufacturer specifications, it has a very good track record. I would not use an unknown "maybe okay".

Having said that, at the age of 62 if I have the choice of installing my 5cwt on a piece of conveyor belt or leaving it another year to save the £1k for the mat I will get it in and working, it will probably see me out!

My little self contained 1cwt Alldays is sitting on conveyor belting bolted to a 30mm (1 1/4") plate which is in turn sitting on 150mm dia x +/-100mm (6" dia x +/- 4") billets which were individually machined to length to suit the slightly uneven floor surface. They are sitting in turn on 150mm dia rubber buffers. Machining the billets took out all the rocking. Although I hardly ever use the little hammer because the 3cwt is good down to 6mm (1/4"), it has been sitting on that for twenty odd years and has not deteriorated with the oil.

The foreman of the West Midland Stamping Company, from whom I bought the 2cwt Massey that benprothero has rebuilt, told me that they just cast a block, dropped the anvil onto it with an inch of timber and then poured concrete around that up to the level of the machine base/floor. And I am not even sure that they put any wood underneath. When I asked if the concrete didn't crack he said they last long enough, and it only needs the top bit to be smashed off and redone. I think they quite often changed shop layout every few years depending on the contracts anyway. One of the foundation designs I will photograph and post was very similar, and I almost went for it, but evidently at the time I was feeling flush enough to think Rolls Royce and go for the mat!

What a ramble, hope something in it is of use.

Alan