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swillk

Champion 400 disassemble problem

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I am having a devil of a time trying to remove the two keys from the keyway on the large gear shaft.  There are keys on both sides of the gear.  I have mangled the one that is on the brass gear side while trying to knock it loose with a punch and hammer.  I am about to the point of just drilling several holes in it and trying to break out the pieces.  The one on the gear housing side is still intact, but there is very little room to work on that side.  I have been spraying Kroil penetrating oil on them for two days and can't get them to budge.  Please help with some suggestions.  Thanks.  

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Heat? Not torches per say but a small propane soldering torch thingy. Not enough heat to melt anything but enough to maybe free something up. At this point not much more to loose.

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You need to ask yourself if you really need to remove the gear from the shaft. In my case, I never did manage to get them apart and now I'm glad I didn't. I will assume it's one long square key that goes all the way through the gear. There's generally a tight fit between the shaft/gear and the key/keyway so there is no slip in the fitup. If you've mangled one side, you will never get the key out from that side until it's filed back down to size.

Be very careful applying any force to the brass gear. The are very delicate and will bend, twist, and even break on you if you push them too much. If you do get the gear off the shaft, you have to worry about getting the alignment just right or the worm drive will not engage properly.

I have no idea what condition yours is in, but the ones I've seen and worked on usually only need bearing replacements, and clean lube. The worst one I have has a pretty badly corroded worm shaft from moisture laying in the bottom of the case, but it still works like a dream.

Please let us know how your overhaul turns out. Pictures are always welcome too.

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The main reason I wanted to remove the gears and shafts is to clean the housing in my electrolysis tank.  There is at least 1/4" of built up grease and soot covering the entire insides of the gear housing.  I could just leave the gears and shafts in place and put the whole housing (minus the top) in the electrolysis tank to clean all that gunk out, and clean the outside of the housing.  Any other ideas on cleaning it out?  Could I leave the whole thing sitting in a tub of degreaser for a few days?

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 Personally, if possible, I avoid using electrolysis on non ferrous metals. I've had a few things disappear..........Dave   

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Just scrape out what you can reach, then degrease the inside with engine cleaner and a toothbrush. It's not going to hurt to leave some grease residue on the inside surfaces for future protection. As far as the outside goes, I've had success with a wire wheel on a drill, but maybe yours is in worse shape.

 

I don't know if the electrolysis would have any negative impact on the bronze gear, bushings, or bearings if they are left assembled.

 

Pictures might help us refine our suggestions. Also, take a moment to add your location to your profile. You might find there are other smiths in your area who can help

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I posted a picture.......................of the internals.

 

Looking for it and do not see it And furthermore, it is no longer loaded on my computer, so it was erased when I posted it on this site.

 

You'll simpmply have to inagine it.

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What dave said. Your bronze gear will dissolve & electrolysis doesn't remove grease in my experiance. the grease doesn't conduct so acts as an insulator the the process.

 

Great for the rust though.

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Thanks for the advice on electrolysis.  I'll go the degreaser route and see how well it does.  I'll take some pics to post.  

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Just out of curiosity, how well did it operate before you started your repairs? Did the handle turn smoothly? In both directions? How far did the handle continue to turn when released? Was there excessive noise from any of the six sets of bearings or from the shafts themselves? Was it heavily rusted inside or out?

 

Depending on the answers to the above questions, and also to the question of what are you trying to accomplish by "repairing" it (showroom new or just functional), how you go about fixing it will differ. Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I've had some that worked less efficiently after I fixed them up. Still need to tweak my bearing slop settings.

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It operated fairly well, but only in one direction and made some noise.  The outside of the housing was pretty dirty with soot.  I didn't really think it needed "repairing", but I just wanted to clean it up.  When I took off the top of the gear housing and saw how much soot and grease was inside, decided to take it apart and clean it up.  It appears the previous owner just greased everything very heavily and didn't use oil at all.  I could also see rust on the spindle in the bottom that the brass gear turns.  

To update, I didn't have much luck with the degreaser so I applied a little heat and was able to drive out the shafts on both gears without much effort.  I put in some wood blocks to hold both gears in place so as not to damage them.  I have it totally apart now and am in the process of cleaning everything.  I am not using electrolysis as advised, but Dawn dishwashing liquid, a wire brush, and a wire wheel on a drill.  Everything is cleaning up nicely.  

 

Thanks for all the advice! 

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It amazes me what extent folks go through to repair a broken handle assy. Yes, get rid of all that junk the P.O. adapted in place of a proper handle. Grind off any welds on that original handle crank/arm. You want a hole. Some seem to be threaded. That was original. The handle "bolt" was a step bolt/shoulder bolt. The shoulder would bottom out tight against the crank arm. I use that or a long (6") bolt with the hex head forged or ground down to the shape of a pin (round head). Thread a nut onto bolt and use a back-up nut to tightens the handle bolt into the crank arm.

 

Anyone with  wood tools can turn you out a new (wood!!!!)  handle. Just a bolt wrapped inside electrical tape or an ill fitted length of black pipe just doesn't do justice to all your hard work. Please respect the tool enough to make it look original and "feel right" in the palm of your hand. 

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I finally got it completely apart and thoroughly cleaned.  Here is everything laid out and ready to be put back together.  I got the bottom worm gear and the small shaft and brass gear and pinion put in this morning.  I was putting in the upper shaft and large gear and in the process of driving the shaft into the gear I rolled the end of the shaft and messed up the last few threads.  Now I can't thread the cone nut on the shaft.  I posted a new thread asking if anyone had a spare upper shaft to sell.  I am dead in the water until I can find a new shaft.  

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Looks like you did a nice job with the clean up. Before you try to find a new shaft, get a small triangular jewelers type file and try to repair the damaged threads, Start about 2 or 3 threads in and work your way back out to the end face. Be patient with it, they are very fine threads. If all else fails, you could gring or file off the first couple threads, then just restore the start point.

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I'm afraid it's going to take more than just filing the threads.  See photo.  I may have to cut off 1/4" to get past the damage.  Not sure if that will leave enough threads on the other end to work out.  Any thoughts?  

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I think the bearing races are an upgrade and a good one. Mine just has loose balls packed with grease and are a pain to deal with.

 

I think there could be an easy fix to your thread.  If you can find the old type split die that matches the thread.  Just clamp it onto the good section of thread and then unscrew it. It will clean and recut the thread on the end.  You may have to file the burr/domed end closer to round.

 

 

Mine is missing the handle and I can't get the fan off :-(

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I finally figured out a way to fix my problem.  I ground down the mushroomed section about 1/3 of the way around the end of the shaft at a 45 degree angle.  Then I used a 24 thread per inch file to clean up the threads and the cone nut went on.  I was then able to complete the re-assembly.  I found a local wood turner who is making a new handle for me.  When I get that handle on I'm done!  I decided to leave it bare metal with a coating of boiled linseed oil.  It gives it a nice look.  I'll post some pics when I get the handle.
I appreciate the suggestions.

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Wow swillk, that turned out beautifully!!  I hope mine turns out as nice as that one!

I just obtained a 400 from eBay that has the stand with the 3 legs.  It's rusty and crusty, but does turn, although I can feel the worm gear bind every now and again.  I plan on disassembling it to clean it up and to (hopefully) fix the binding issue.  I have a broken 400 crank case that I might be able to use for parts (the whole fan and cowling was gone, and it looks like the worm gear on that one had snapped where it protrudes out the front for the fan assembly to attach to, though I think the brass gear and other gears inside are still in good shape).

I was wondering if you had any tips on breaking it down for cleaning.  Can't seem to find a decent set of plans on how it disassembles.  Any ideas?

I also plan to fully document the breakdown of mine piece by piece since I can't find a good step by step instruction set, so hopefully that will help others in the future.  But any help you can throw my way would be much appreciated!

Congrats again on how beautiful that one turned out!


Thanks!!

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There are some out there who have been through many of these but the screen says I am not allowed to post here. Happy to see you made it.

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if it's like the one pictured if I recall correctly the top piece *slides* away from the fan cowling after you take out 2 screws by the cowling

If it is rusty inside the gearbox it will be hard to get it to slide. Gentle firmness with a wooden mallet may help!

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