Borntoolate

Quench Oil Temperature?

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I have been searching, and I may be dense, but I am having trouble getting guidance on the proper pre-heat temperature for a quench oil.    I am guessing that this is probably because there are NUMEROUS variables.   Possibly because none is needed...  But some guidelines on this would be great...!

 

My specific question:

Material  1084 (ordered from NJ Steel baron not Aldo...)

5/32" thick

6" long blade with full taper.

2" wide max part of the blade

McMaster Car Quench 11 second...

Local conditions: southern Louisiana, July.   Current ambient/oil temp ~80F - 90F

 

I am not concerned with ability to get the right metal temperature for the quench nor the tempering temperature. 

 

Do I need to preheat this oil for a proper quench?

 

If so...  What temperature?

 

As a bonus if preheat is needed I would be interested in how you achieve this.   Though I suspect a kitchen stove and a thermometer is quite adequate. 

 

This is my first knife and I just want a good quench.  I am not looking for anything special here on the quench.  Just a good, properly done quench that will deliver what you experts would want for hardness.  Or at least well within that "expert" ballpark.

 

I have hunted the stickies and the site and if I am missing the easy answer somewhere I apologize.  

 

Actually... May be dense is perhaps an understatement... at least at first...  But when I "get it" I generally get it as good or better than most.    :unsure: 

 

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I suspect a kitchen stove and a thermometer is quite adequate.

Please send in your payment for fire insurance before you even consider this method of heating quench oils. If the oil catches fire and it spreads to the house, I suspect the insurance company will say you were doing something out of the norm and refuse to pay.

 

Clear a 10 or 15 foot radius of all combustible materials, wet it down very well with a garden hose and put 9-1-1 on speed dial. Remember Safety First and do it outside.

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First:  since the NJ steel baron is Aldo Bruno and company I see your statement is very odd.

Second: most posts I have read from people that know what they are talking about give a range of between 120F and 160F for pre heating quenching oils, and why ( I prefer the lower range but I think the point has been made)

Third: if you are not concerned about metal temp prior to quench dont ya think there may be problems resulting from that ?

 

so I ask Why bother?  just hire it out, its much safer.

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I've generally heard about anything from 120-135 for that'un. Don't use it myself. Heating should speed up the quench. Easy way would be experiment on a piece of the same steel you're going to use and see if the heat treat takes it where you want it.

 

The thermometer and kitchen stove on the other hand.......yikes! Ever see a nasty grease fire? I quench with long tongs. In a metal tin. Outside. In more or less full PPE. And I expect/prepare for flames shooting up and nasty (and potentially toxic fumes).

 

But I'm not too particular. Usually pick how warm by counting how many seconds I've held a hot rod in the oil. If it doesn't hard enough, warm the oil a little more and try again. If that doesn't work.....well there's always brine. (please note that before I go sticking it in brine or water and risk breaking it, I try it with test pieces first.......at least after I broke a few things I do.)

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As far as heating up the quenchant, depending on what it's in and the amount, you could heat a RR spike beforehand and drop it into there.  I'd strongly recommend using a metal container with a lid AND using it outside!  My quench tank is made from an old steel scuba tank I got from a dive shop for $5. 

 

Whatever you do be careful and think it through beforehand.   I started a greasefire in college thru stupidity and got 3rd degree burns on my hand and luckily didn't burn down the apartment.

 

post-34362-0-88009100-1405621353_thumb.jpost-34362-0-01514300-1405621397_thumb.j

 

 

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Alright!   We gettin somewhere!!!    :)  :)  :)

 

 

What temp does Mc carr suggest?

I have not been able to get any info from them.   I may need to hunt that harder  

 

Please send in your payment for fire insurance before you even consider this method of heating quench oils. If the oil catches fire and it spreads to the house, I suspect the insurance company will say you were doing something out of the norm and refuse to pay.

 

Clear a 10 or 15 foot radius of all combustible materials, wet it down very well with a garden hose and put 9-1-1 on speed dial. Remember Safety First and do it outside.

LOL.    OK!    I was thinking this would be in the 130-150F range and if so it would be much lower than a typical fry pan temperature.  Then transport outside for quenching.   But good point.  Long term I need to be self sufficient in my shop and or outside.   To be honest I have been watching several of the youtube Trollskyy videos and I see him just quench in oil next to his oven with little to no smoke and or fire.   Though He has a preheat oven except in one video where he uses the forge and in that case there is a bit more smoke and fire because it is obvious that he might be a bit hot.   I would never quench in the house!   Yikes  :(  I like the Trollskyy vids BTW.   If you have not checked them out do so.  I would be interested in your thoughts on that?

 

 

First:  since the NJ steel baron is Aldo Bruno and company I see your statement is very odd.

Second: most posts I have read from people that know what they are talking about give a range of between 120F and 160F for pre heating quenching oils, and why ( I prefer the lower range but I think the point has been made)

Third: if you are not concerned about metal temp prior to quench dont ya think there may be problems resulting from that ?

 

so I ask Why bother?  just hire it out, its much safer.

I did not know that NJ Steel Baron Was Aldo!  I mean, that is not like super obvious?  Now I do!!!!   Thank you!  Maybe He should be like "Aldo the NJ Steel Baron".      Just checking... just now...  if you go to his site and hit Explore/about the Baron...   Then I see it.   ;) 

 

Basically I took some advice from somewhere on this site that the NJ Steel Baron had good stuff and good prices and I went with it.   In other words I trust folks on this site and I went with it BAM!   A knifemaker friend of mine at work confirmed the price bit and he actually increased my order just so he could get some too!   

 

So Third...   I did not mean that I was not concerned about achieving the appropriate temperature for the knife to be quenched at.    What I meant was that I was not asking about how to do that nor what that temp was.  I feel confident I can achieve that with what I know and the equipment I have.    I was attempting to limit the replies to ONLY that which was in bold and underlined.   And my bold and underlined was not meant to be angry looking tho I was a little frustrated.    :)   But that's my problem cause I am a curmudgeon wanna be!   Seriously.   Other folks would say I am already there.   I don't want to hire it out.  I want to learn how to do it properly and safely myself.  

 

As far as heating up the quenchant, depending on what it's in and the amount, you could heat a RR spike beforehand and drop it into there.  I'd strongly recommend using a metal container with a lid AND using it outside!  My quench tank is made from an old steel scuba tank I got from a dive shop for $5. 

 

Whatever you do be careful and think it through beforehand.   I started a greasefire in college thru stupidity and got 3rd degree burns on my hand and luckily didn't burn down the apartment.

 

attachicon.gifquench tank02.jpgattachicon.gifquench tank04.jpg

Yup, need to figure out my metal tank.   And how to pre-heat is still an open issue.   I am not sure I want to heat it as you suggest though that makes me think...  Long term, if I do as you suggest, toss in hot RR spike, that this may degrade and or impart excess impurities/degrade  the quenchant??  Once again just my thinking which might be wrong...     

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I stir my quench tank (made of 6 inch dia tube, soon to be replaced with 12 inch dia) with hot iron from the fire, 2.5 gal dont take a lot to rasie the temp 50 degrees F

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I stir my quench tank (made of 6 inch dia tube, soon to be replaced with 12 inch dia) with hot iron from the fire, 2.5 gal dont take a lot to rasie the temp 50 degrees F

Red hot?   Black hot?   White hot?   Seems how hot, like frying might make a difference in oil life, degradation, fire, smoke...  or maybe not???

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red, black...dont matter how hot the iron is as long as after a dunk and stir or two, I get my oil to 120 F and I use it til it gets 160F then I allow to cool before I use it on more blades.  my quenching temp range is 120F to 160F

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Born too Late!!

 

You need to do some experimenting with similar material and figure out what works and what doesn't work. If you have a habit of forgetting, write your findings in a book so you can refresh your memory in a year or two (or more).

 

Git your hands away from the keyboard and do your own leg work.

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My quench tank is the bottom of a Oxy tank.  It is built into a holder making it quite difficult to accidentally tip over.  To heat it I have a couple of largish chunks of steel with 3/16 steel wires attached that I heat and then drop down deep into the tank and hook the wire on the rim.  It of course has a steel lid.  Had a friend burn his shop down trying to quench using a plastic bucket---an experienced smith just trying to take a shortcut. 

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i second the get into the shop note above..it is soo easy just to type a question in here..but shop time solves questions and the answers stick with youi.

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My quench tank uses the old top of the scuba tank as a catch all so that you can fish out anything that you drop in.  If can also be used to move something vertically up and down in the tank.

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Good point---deep tank for small items DEMANDS a strainer in the bottom that you can pull up to recover any "oopses" 

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i second the get into the shop note above..it is soo easy just to type a question in here..but shop time solves questions and the answers stick with youi.

 

 

Born too Late!!

 

You need to do some experimenting with similar material and figure out what works and what doesn't work. If you have a habit of forgetting, write your findings in a book so you can refresh your memory in a year or two (or more).

 

Git your hands away from the keyboard and do your own leg work.

Yeah, I can resemble that remark.   Sometimes I spend more time thinking than doing.   This pesky day job also gets in the way.  They expect me to work like 50+ hours almost every "normal" week!  Plus I work at an oil refinery and we been in turnaround for the last 3 weeks...   if you all know what that means?   Then with 6 acres and 70 year old house there are always distractions from shop time.

 

But I got a path forward.   Got my Quench oil.   Got a target temperature.    Got knife #1 pretty close to ready for quench and temper.  Got some learnings from others quicker than I could trial and error it with shop time...

 

Most of ALL!  I am now on 9 days of Stacation.     ;)   And it looks like rain and more rain.   :)  Oops, prolly not gonna be able to seal coat that asphalt driveway... :P  Oh well!   DARNIT!!!!!   :rolleyes:  i do wanna get that 24' forge smoke stack put up tho....   :wub:  shhhh.   Got help... er company coming. :D

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I preheat the oil using a piece of hot metal, however, if I were going to be making knives frequently, I would purchase a used electric roaster (new ones obviously would work too). They make a nice quench tank, assuming you have electricity where you are working. Self contained metal tank with lid and controllable temperature, no fuss preheat, and plenty big for most knives.

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