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RyanMark

Hammer Recommendation

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What is the largest, currently in production, self-contained air hammer that I could run off of 220v, single phase, 50 amp breaker?  And do they come stock with a single phase motor?  I would like to do without a phase converter.

Thanks!

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Call James Johnson the Anyang US dealer, or John Larson.

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A quality 10 horse 1750 RPM motor should pull around 40 amps +/- depending on load IIRC (single phase 240).  Starting amps will be higher.  Energy in = energy out minus loss so a little math and reading specifications should match a hammer to your supply.  Seems a poor way of choosing a hammer thou, I'd figure the work needed to be done and work backwards from there, upgrading electrical supply is WAY cheaper than buying a self contained power hammer.  

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What is the largest, currently in production, self-contained air hammer that I could run off of 220v, single phase, 50 amp breaker?  And do they come stock with a single phase motor?  I would like to do without a phase converter.

Thanks!

A mechanical hammer will hit harder (for the same tup weight) and use a fraction of the electricity. 

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It was said that the self-containeds are more controllable than other types.    Plus the only type of hammer I've used was a Nazel 2B.  I didn't know they were less efficient.

 

I'm drawing out circular bronze ingots into plates.  Maybe I don't need the finest control.  Never used a mechanical hammer so I don't know. 

 

If I was able to afford a hammer right now, I'd just pick up a 100 lb LG when one pops up for sale.  But I'm thinking of a Kickstarter campaign to get a hammer, so I might as well get a nice new one.  And, I can't plan the campaign around a used hammer that may not be available if and when the campaign is successful.  A delay in obtaining a hammer and making the backers' "rewards" is something I want to avoid.

 

Which mechanical hammers are currently in production? 

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There are no mechanical hammers currently in production in the US. Both utility style and self contained hammers can be purchased new. There are several makers of utility (those requiring an external air compressor) in the US: Big Blue, Iron Kiss and Ken Zitur. The self contained machines are made in Germany (Kuhn), Turkey (Say-Mak/Sinhalier) and China (Anyang and Striker). All have their good and bad points. The challenge you are going to be faced with, no matter what hammer style, maker or vintage you get is keeping uniform thickness to your plates. For that you'll either have to learn how to do that by feel or set up some kind of a stop to keep the dies a fixed distance apart. From a controlability standpoint, you can't beat a Bradley mechanical running on a big slack belt. There are some limitations with this and other mechanical hammers which you don't have with a self contained machine, but for repetitive flat die work they are fantastic.The biggest limitation I see that you'll face with a self contained is the size of the dies. If you are doing large disk type forgings that completely cover the lower die, you will have no way to stop the upper die to produce a uniform thickness. Because of the die orientation used by Bradley, you can make very long dies which means you can still set up stop blocks and have room for your work piece. The challenge you'll have with most mechanical hammers, regardless of make, is that they often need rebuilding (if they're cheap). If that rebuild is done well then they usually very good hammers within their design limits. I'd encourage you to work with other smiths in you area who have various hammer. Get a feel for what you like and don't like about them before committing.

By the way, I am running a 300 lb Bradley guided helve, which is actually set up with 460# ram, on a 10 horse, single phase 220 motor. The hammer runs at about 220 bpm when fully engaged. If I want, I can feather that ram back so it just floats. I did this once to forge dragon fly wings from 3/16" square and it worked beautifully.

Patrick

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For years I used my little 25# Moloch with good success but many projects were just more than it could handle so added an 88# Anyang (new) w/ 3 phase (I have 3 phase in my shop).

 

I also am on a commercial electricity service w/ a demand meter.  Starting the Anyang costs me approx $100 per month over prior electricity usage cost.  It sat for several months last year

w/o being used (we were doing other things) and the shop bill dropped back to "normal".  Something came up and I started the 88 and ran it for about an hour, walah! Elect bill jumped $125

from prior month.  This was for a total of 325 Kwh usage.

 

I'm not sure what I can do, if anything.  But the 88 is great on bigger stuff.

 

Any electrical guru's out there with any suggestions?

 

James

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He probably got hit with either a power factor charge or a demand charge or both.

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One suggestion to keep that power bill down is to avoid running other higher power tools at the same time as you run your hammer.  Turn your compressor off don't weld while the hammer is welding.  I am surprised a 7.5hp motor is enough to cause a demand charge.  I would suspect it is a combination of a number of tools at once.  You might want to speak with your electricity supplier, maybe you can get your base load adjusted and save on your bill.

 

I have never had a large demand charge even when running 30hp for the hammer 5hp for the press 5hp for the compressor 6hp for the CNC router spindle and a couple of hp for the router  servo motors all running at once.

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Patrick's response is superb.  As for mechanicals hitting harder than air hammers, well, that is something I disagree with based on my years of observations.

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John, I have found that without doubt mechanicals hit harder per horse power of motor.  I have run a 60lg goliath on a 1 hp motor and an equivalent massey (55lb) needs all of 3 to 4 hp to make it work . I would assume that with a compressor run hammer the losses are more.

lots of ways to look at it, power of hit , power of hits over time, power of hits compared to power consumption.

 

It kind of depends on what your limiting factors are , power , money , time, versitility?

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John, I have found that without doubt mechanicals hit harder per horse power of motor.  I have run a 60lg goliath on a 1 hp motor and an equivalent massey (55lb) needs all of 3 to 4 hp to make it work . I would assume that with a compressor run hammer the losses are more.
lots of ways to look at it, power of hit , power of hits over time, power of hits compared to power consumption.
 
It kind of depends on what your limiting factors are , power , money , time, versitility?


There was a thread on here a while back about smashing one piece in one heat but a true productivity test would require running a fairly large capability study on multiple similar pieces in a controlled environment, which is unlikely to happen outside of a manufacturer's testing lab. However, it would be interesting to set up a 100 lb LG next to a 100 lb air hammer and forge something simple like breaker points for 8 hrs and compare the results.

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I think we are talking about 2 different efficiencies here.  In terms of HP efficiency  I would agree that a mechanical hammer is more efficient than an air hammer,  and self contained air hammers are slightly  more efficient than utility hammers.  That being said my 30hp motor only costs me just over $2/hr based on running under full load for the full hour.  So an extra 2-3 hp around an extra 20 cents per hour unless there are demand meter issues as mentioned above. 

 

I would disagree with the assertion that a mechanical will outwork an air hammer of the same size.   A Massey or a Nazel type I will also take large dies as the dies don't go up into the head. 

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I was not gauging my response as to the motor size.  I do know that a 75 pound Iron Kiss utility hammer will out work a 75 pound Little Giant.  I think it is also true for a Beaudry.  Maybe not for a Fairbanks compact design; its reputation is top of the line.

 

A reason why Little Giants and similar machines run on such low horsepower is that rebound of the hammer head aids the up stroke.  Instead of a penetrating blow (squish) the Little Giants have more of a slapping blow.

 

On utility hammers versus self-contained hammers, there is a consideration for the full tilt volumetric efficiency that needs to be made.  Usually self-containeds have pretty good full throttle air flows and usually modern utility hammers seem a bit choked comparatively.  But there are exceptions and good utility hammer designers work on this high end flow without sacrifice of control at all treadle depressions.

 

Generalizations are difficult.  Testing of as many hammers as possible makes enormous sense.  What you enjoy working with depends as much on you and your requirements as it does on the hammer's specs.  Why else are 25 pound Little Giants so useful to so many?

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It was said that the self-containeds are more controllable than other types.    Plus the only type of hammer I've used was a Nazel 2B.  I didn't know they were less efficient.

 

I'm drawing out circular bronze ingots into plates.  Maybe I don't need the finest control.  Never used a mechanical hammer so I don't know. 

 

If I was able to afford a hammer right now, I'd just pick up a 100 lb LG when one pops up for sale.  But I'm thinking of a Kickstarter campaign to get a hammer, so I might as well get a nice new one.  And, I can't plan the campaign around a used hammer that may not be available if and when the campaign is successful.  A delay in obtaining a hammer and making the backers' "rewards" is something I want to avoid.

 

Which mechanical hammers are currently in production? 

If you do have the chance to get a 100 lb Little Giant. I highly recommend it! I have two and love em!!! These hammers do hit harder than the 110 lb air hammers. I'm running both with 5 hp motors, 220V, 20 amp breakers..

 

That said, if I didn't have the Little Giants, I'd look hard at the Sahinler SM50 & Say-Mak for a 110 lb self contained...

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