natkova Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I always read chrome vanadium on wrenches what that mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 it should mean it is made with a chrome and vanadium steel alloy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natkova Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 That usualy show on some wrenches. Why some wrenches are weaker than other. Is steel and carbon key for that. I thik that chrome is only for shiny and vanadium might be for strenght but its realy in rare percent in steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 In the US, the common designation is: Alloy Steel AISI 6150 It has a little Chromium and Vanadium added to the melt to make it more hardenable and more ductile than a straight carbon steel. Good for tools that see abuse like wrenches and chisels. (Chrome plating on the outside is just to prevent rust.) And since this is the World Wide Web: France: AFNOR 50 CV 4 Germany: DIN 1.8159 Italy: UNI 5OCrV 4 Japan: JIS SUP 10 Sweden: SS 2230 United Kingdom: B.S. 735 A 50 , B.S. En. 47 United States: AMS 6448 , AMS 6448C , AMS 6450 , AMS 6450C , AMS 6455 , AMS 6455C , AMS 7301 , ASTM A231 , ASTM A322 , ASTM A331 , ASTM A505 , MIL SPEC MIL-S-8503 , SAE J404 , SAE J412 , SAE J770 , UNS G61500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Greetings , Yep I knew it... John is a metal man in several languages... That's why I refer to him as Dr. John LOL Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 "That boy done gradi-ated 6th grade: commence to ciphering, Jethro." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natkova Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 In the US, the common designation is: Alloy Steel AISI 6150 It has a little Chromium and Vanadium added to the melt to make it more hardenable and more ductile than a straight carbon steel. Good for tools that see abuse like wrenches and chisels. (Chrome plating on the outside is just to prevent rust.) And since this is the World Wide Web: France: AFNOR 50 CV 4 Germany: DIN 1.8159 Italy: UNI 5OCrV 4 Japan: JIS SUP 10 Sweden: SS 2230 United Kingdom: B.S. 735 A 50 , B.S. En. 47 United States: AMS 6448 , AMS 6448C , AMS 6450 , AMS 6450C , AMS 6455 , AMS 6455C , AMS 7301 , ASTM A231 , ASTM A322 , ASTM A331 , ASTM A505 , MIL SPEC MIL-S-8503 , SAE J404 , SAE J412 , SAE J770 , UNS G61500 Where i can see on forum this word to steel translate. Am not sure but are those metal in PEriodic siystem element. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 All right, you asked for it, I will go full Professor on you now. No mercy. :P AISI 6150, a medium carbon oil hardening steel (English name, atomic number, atomic weight) Latin abbreviation, percent by weight breakdown (Iron 26, 55.85) Fe 97% +/- (Carbon 6, 12.011) C 0.48-0.53% (Chromium 24, 52.01) Cr 0.80-1.10% (Manganese 25, 54.94) Mn 0.70-0.90% (Silicon 14, 28.09) Si 0.15-0.30% (Vanadium 23, 50.95) V 0.15% + There are maximum standards for tramp elements, but those are pretty small, and easily ignored for most blacksmith type operations. Do you want the carbon equivalency multiplier for each element, or can we quit now? B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Strange how "chrome vanadium" sounds like " the real deal" and " manganese silicon" sounds well crappy yet much the same percentage wise, I suppose that's the sales pitch! John you are a biscuit ! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natkova Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 Silicone is not metal. Its better to learn more i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Natkova: You're really trying to overthink the craft. Don't worry, it's pretty common for new folk to do just what you are. New folk to most any craft want the perfect tools and materials and conditions thinking it will improve their product. It won't, mostly it'll only confuse you. What we as blacksmiths need to know about Chrome Vanadium, or any alloy or plating is: #1, is it toxic? To work it or the finished product. #2, will it effect workability and how. #3, will it effect the finished product, if so how. That's about all there is we need to know as blacksmiths. For instance, chrome plated steel can be very dangerous to put in the forge. Cadmium plating even more dangerous. Both can have long term health risks. Zinc plating can be dangerous but not nearly so as cadmium or chrome. If you're thinking about forging old wrenches into sellable items like kitchen ware, garden tools, hangers, hooks cabinet hardware, etc. Be very careful of any fumes coming off it in or out of the forge! It won't have enough carbon nor chrome to make good blades beyond the kitchen table. They'll look cool though, just advertise them as letter openers and nobody can accuse you of dishonesty. Silicone isn't a metal? REALLY! Neither is carbon. Making assumptions is a time honored method of stepping in the pucky or having to develop a taste for your own feet. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Silicone is a totally different thing (elastomer) than Silicon, which is an element added to steel melts as a de-oxidiser. "John you are a biscuit !" Ian Nah, I'm a scone. 'The Scone of Stone.' ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Silicone is a totally different thing (elastomer) than Silicon, which is an element added to steel melts as a de-oxidiser. "John you are a biscuit !" Ian Nah, I'm a scone. 'The Scone of Stone.' ;) I vote kooky cookie! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 The Scone of Stone is part of the legend of dwarfbread, maybe john is a maker of such items ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natkova Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 How you guys know wich steel have i guess some metals in it when you take metal to hand. If its wood it's easy casue of grain and structure to notice ex this is birch it have colour and textures. Or for brass i can notice that. Its goldish yelow color. But for steel how you know how much carbon it have inside. And i heard that 100% iron dont exist caseu its imposible to cast it without some other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 you BUY the alloy you wish to have, If you read in the forums, you would know one can not tell what alloy any junk yard steel is, only make guess from what is was used for before it was junked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Field identifying and shop testing found steel is an art in itself. There are I believe some long discussions of identifying steels hee somewhere. I'd post a link but my searching is off line for now. I've been doing some yard work, spring cleaning, bruysh whacking and packing and I'm too beat to think. There are charts and lists of the kind of steel you can expect to find in various manufactured parts, leaf and coil springs or axles for instance. There are some pretty complete lists but you still need to test because steels change over time. Todat's spring steel isn't the same stuff it was 30 years ago let alone 100. Shop tests, after estimating depending on what you found, typically start with a spark test. Stroke the item on a grinder or use a disk grinder to generate sparks. The type of sparks will depending on the carbon content in simple carbon steel. high alloy steels don't tell us a lot spark testing. Anyway, low carbon and wrought will have red or dull orange sparks that travel quite a way from the grinder without bursting. As the carbon % rises the sparks will get brighter and move up the spectrum towards white heat. As they do they will begin to burst like a sparkler until you hit the really hot end, white heat and they'll burst into showers of sparks very soon behind the grinder. you'll even be able to hear them hissing and spitting. What causes the difference is the heat generated by the grinder, the higher the carbon content the harder it is to grind generally so it generates more heat. Also the carbon itself is flammable and increases the fireworks of the bursts. Don't take my description too literally, there are good books and online charts including color charts and photos of the sparks. find and consult those for actual spark testing. Also, spark testing is an estimator it isn't something that will tell you definitively what's in the steel. Shop testing then progresses to the practical aspects of what can a particular piece be used to make. You can just make one and see how it works OR you can test some of it's properties so you'll have a better idea if it'll work. The basic test goes as follows. Sort of. Forge the test coupon down to a length of a few inches, say 6" 150mm. width of 3/4" 19mm. and thickness of about 1/8" 3mm. You want the thickness as uniform as you can get it. Now heat it to critical heat and quench it in oil. Shine it up and temper from one end till a light straw temper color reaches about 1", 25mm. from the other end. Stop the temper by quenching in water. Now comes the fun part. Place the coupon in the vise with just the end without a temper color sticking up. Lay a rag over it to catch and splinters and give it a light rap with a hammer to bend or break it. If it snaps off with a nice little tink remove the rag and examine the break for the grain structure. hopefully it'll be a smooth gray without sparkles. Next slide the coupon up till the light straw color is centered in the vise jaws, cover it with the rag and repeat with the hammer. Take notes of exactly what happens as you teat each temper color zone of the coupon. If it's still snapping when you reach the blue zone it means oil is too rapid a quench it may be an air hardening steel. If on the other hand it bends in the untempered or light straw zone it may be a water quench steel. Repeat the test on another coupon with a water quench. Do you get the idea how the shop tests work? There are sites with specific instructions online, so once again don't take my description as instructions. If we're lucky someone will post with links to good instructions with pictures, etc. Now for the secret. NONE of these will tell you what's in the steel. It really isn't all that important to the blacksmith what alloy s/he's using. What REALLY counts is what is it good for. And that my friend is just what field and shop tests will tell you, what can be made with that piece of steel you just found in the ditch. Maybe it isn't so good for knives but is perfect for springs, punches and cold chisels or maybe it has so much carbon in it it's only good for straight razors. As long as we know what we can make with it who cares what's in it. yeah, we don't want to use steels that emit toxic fumes or smoke when heated but I don't know of field or shop tests that'll tell us that. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 you BUY the alloy you wish to have, If you read in the forums, you would know one can not tell what alloy any junk yard steel is, only make guess from what is was used for before it was junked. Doggonit Steve, will you type faster next time! That was much better said and so much shorter than the windy ramble I just churned out. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Greeting guys, I like the ol kiss theory... If it looks silvery or shiny do not put it in the forge unless you know what it is and its origin ... Dats simple Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Doggonit Steve, will you type faster next time! That was much better said and so much shorter than the windy ramble I just churned out. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. So now its my fault you are long winded and slow? And dont you have some anvil cozy's to knit ? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 So now its my fault you are long winded and slow? And dont you have some anvil cozy's to knit ? :D YES, everything is you Admin guy's fault! As soon as I can talk Deb into spinning some Kaowool yarn I'll learn to knit. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Steve, that just mean, funny but mean, it's not right to call someone "slow" challenged, maybe, think three legged hamster in the wheel etc. but don't say it! I'm concerned that eventually he'll figure it out....... :D We love you frosty, that bad man won't get a lollipop tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Three legged hamsters are considered deficient in SA aren't they Ian? Missing a drumstick, right? You BBQ hamsters on a wheel? Post a pic please. Oh wait, you want me to figure it out! Now who's mean, no cookie for you either! Uh Ian, this talk about loving me and Steve's lollipop is creeping me out! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 you BUY the alloy you wish to have, If you read in the forums, you would know one can not tell what alloy any junk yard steel is, only make guess from what is was used for before it was junked. Steve sells, It seems NATKOVA's English maybe better than your's considering it's your native language :) Or perhaps it's just because you were trying to beat Frosty to the punch? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natkova Posted May 11, 2014 Author Share Posted May 11, 2014 But i can't use everything that is metal and isn toxicated for axe. If i use rebar that's would be realy bad axe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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