WisdomWarlord Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I have a twin electrode carbon arc torch made by Craftsman/Sears and Roebuck in the mid-60's, in perfect condition, along with the ground clamp and cable, and the stick clamp and cable from the same welder, in the same condition. I really really want to get proficient at a very unconventional setup. I want to use 2 car batteries as the sole power source for both the carbon arc torch and the arc welder. I want to be proficient at cutting, welding, Brazing, and heating, using only these two methods, powered by the batteries. I'll be charging the batteries as needed. I only intend on welding, brazing, cutting and bending bicycle frames and parts. Occasionally I may want to do thicker material for brackets and such, but not more than .250". I'm not a very proficient welder unless it's tig, so I don't have much to draw on from other skills. My question is about heat control. It seems to me that the only difference between these several methods is a matter of heat. So, I need to know how I can control heat. My voltage source will be, for the most-part, constant. The amount of time I hold an arc in one place can help control the total heat but not the temperature rise, so heating too much of the part for too long can become a problem. What other ways can I control the heat? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I've got to ask why would you want do this when there's better tools available? Out of interest a while back I built a carbon arc torch. I've found it useful occasionally for preheating but it's very difficult to control the size of the flame and hard to judge the temperature of what you're heating because you have to use at least shade 12 or higher. Apparently the brazing type of electrodes that would provide a more steady consistent burn are no longer available, only the gouging rods are available now. You should be able to adjust the amperage on your arc welder but it's still going to put out a flame similar to what you get when using a rosebud head while using OA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Welcome aboard, glad to have you. Put your general location in the header you might be surprised at how many IFI folk live within visiting distance. There's only one way to control that rig. YOU have to learn how to weld, then YOU have to learn how to weld with THAT rig. Even if there's someone here who can tell you how to use a tool probably 60+ years obsolete, (think that's likely on a blacksmith site!) Telling you isn't going to do you any good. YOU have to learn to weld THEN how to weld with that rig. What we "want" to do is usually brought into perspective, under rein or round filed by reality. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Arc welders are "constant current" machines. The only way to control heat during the weld (to a small degree) is by varying your arc length. Bike frames should be TIG welded, not stick if that was what you were intending it for. Most (decent) frames and parts are 4130 chromoly that is post-weld heat treated to keep the area in the HAZ from getting brittle. You want a pulse arc TIG machine for bike stuff. -Crazy Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Arc welders are "constant current" machines. The only way to control heat during the weld (to a small degree) is by varying your arc length. Bike frames should be TIG welded, not stick if that was what you were intending it for. Most (decent) frames and parts are 4130 chromoly that is post-weld heat treated to keep the area in the HAZ from getting brittle. You want a pulse arc TIG machine for bike stuff. -Crazy Ivan Not all welding processes are the same.Some are constant current and some constant voltage. http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/process-and-theory/Pages/constant-current-vs-constant-coltage-output.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 ARC (aka stick) is always constant current and MIG will always be constant voltage. Like I said and like that article says that you posted. I may have missed your point or you may have mis-interpreted what I said, but I am pretty sure we are saying the same thing. -Crazy Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 yup we're saying the same thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 So when you change the amps on an arc welder because you're using a different size electrode or due to thickness of the metal, you're not affecting the heat except for variation in the length of the arc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WisdomWarlord Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 The why is because in a shtf or wrol situation, I don't expect bottled gas to be easily available. 220V AC may be hard to come buy as well, but there will definitely he ways to get a pair of fully charged car truck or boat batteries to do some welding with. Carbon rods would be the hard part, so I'll stock some up. Brazing material and flux will be easy to come buy since I may be the only guy who's able to weld. Would the diameter of the carbons have an effect on heat? I'm also kinda wondering how old-school I can be and still have an acceptable finished product. I know tig is way better. However, there was no tig welding in the 20's and 30's, and there were bikes and motorcycles being welded and brazed. So I'm wondering how much of our modern advancements are required and how much is simply convenient. This has several facets to it for me. Some practical, some nostalgic, and some just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 So when you change the amps on an arc welder because you're using a different size electrode or due to thickness of the metal, you're not affecting the heat except for variation in the length of the arc? Thats not what I'm saying. I said "The only way to control heat during the weld...". Emphasis on the "during". Obviously you can change settings on the machine. The OP was asking about something like a remote setting with variable heat control. EDIT:(saftey/machine care note) Also, on a constant current machine if you try to fiddle with the voltage while the machine is under load, you will melt the rectifier and ruin the machine. I've seen it happen. I'm also kinda wondering how old-school I can be and still have an acceptable finished product. I know tig is way better. However, there was no tig welding in the 20's and 30's, and there were bikes and motorcycles being welded and brazed. So I'm wondering how much of our modern advancements are required and how much is simply convenient. This has several facets to it for me. Some practical, some nostalgic, and some just silly. True and it is still doable today, but the construction of bikes back then was a heavily (also heavy) gusseted construction gas welded together. -Crazy Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Thanks for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Wisdom: I would suggest taking a tig welding course at your local welding school. You will learn how many adjustments tig machines have today for many many situations and metals. You will be pleasantly surprised especially for welding bikes. In the process, you will learn the factors in controlling your heat and how to adjust your machine. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WisdomWarlord Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 SoCal, that is something I am considering, once I'm in a position to afford the tig welder. However, that's kinda the exact opposite of what I want to accomplish with this carbon arc torch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Smith Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Concerning the use of batteries you would need to tap individual plates to lower volts and amps, but that process cuts both amps and volts equally. That would mean tearing into the batteries. Not a safe proposition I would Think! I doubt one could find many usable low volt/amp combinations. In a shtf situation the old school methods were they used rivets ,screws, and bolts. For "old school" you are overthinking the problem. Forge brazing and soldering aint hard to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I like it!!!!! Battery fumes and arcing. Most people wait for Halloween or July 4th for Fire-Works. Poor house/shop, now a toaster. :wacko: :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 ARC (aka stick) is always constant current and MIG will always be constant voltage. Like I said and like that article says that you posted. I may have missed your point or you may have mis-interpreted what I said, but I am pretty sure we are saying the same thing. -Crazy Ivan No, you can easily MIG on either with the right equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 The why is because in a shtf or wrol situation, I don't expect bottled gas to be easily available. 220V AC may be hard to come buy as well, but there will definitely he ways to get a pair of fully charged car truck or boat batteries to do some welding with. Carbon rods would be the hard part, so I'll stock some up. Brazing material and flux will be easy to come buy since I may be the only guy who's able to weld. Would the diameter of the carbons have an effect on heat? Research Brown's gas. Much more realistic than what you are proposing. 2. 2 car batteries is going to do a stunningly small amount of work before discharging. 3. As the batteries discharge your heat and voltage will be changing. It is unlikely you can even complete 1 weld with the heat the same as when you start it. You can make your own methane with as little equipment as 2 containers, a bit of hose and a tire innertube. Natural gas is an good torch fuel. 4. You can buy a lifetime supply of calcium carbide for a few hundred dollars and make your own acetylene with a homemade acetylene generator. 5. Learn the blacksmith trade, we have been forming metal including welding and brazing for a few thousand years. Even rocks can be used as both hammers and anvils. I have hand powered drill presses wich will make big holes in thick hard steel, foot and hand powered grinders, hand powered blowers for heating steel and melting other metals, etc. Once skilled you can make all the tools you need and there are still plenty of cheap used tools available. There is no better survival prep than being an equipped blacksmith. After Armagedon free metal will be everywhere. If you really want to do what you are saying, you need a much larger bank of batteries or much larger batteries, and a heavy duty rheostat such as could be salvaged from a welding machine. I suggest Edison (iron-nickel) batteries, since they last forever, are not damaged by overcharge or overdraw, tend to be huge, and have multiple taps already available. If you are totally serious ask more questions but don't include the carbon arc torch, since that is senseless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 No, you can easily MIG on either with the right equipment. Could you clarify that? The only thing I could find on that was that there are a FEW specialized machines factory made to run MIG on CC instead of CV and that it is very hard to weld thin material on CC MIG. Flux cored is doable, but solid wire seems to have problems and that a voltage sensing wire feed is needed to pull it off $$$.Either way this is all new information to me. Thanks for pointing me toward some new info! -Crazy Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Could you clarify that? The only thing I could find on that was that there are a FEW specialized machines factory made to run MIG on CC instead of CV and that it is very hard to weld thin material on CC MIG. Flux cored is doable, but solid wire seems to have problems and that a voltage sensing wire feed is needed to pull it off $$$.Either way this is all new information to me. Thanks for pointing me toward some new info! -Crazy Ivan Sure. In 1983 I bought my first of four Lincoln LN-25 wire feeders. They will run on anything you give them. There are switches for polarity and cv/cc. There is a voltage sensing lead which must be attached to the work so the wirefeed motor can adjust to the arc voltage (which powers the wire feeder). I have run these things on every kind of power source imaginable, everything from 1/16" flux core to .045 hard wire w/CO2 to Al with argon, stainless with tri-mix, .025 with 75-25 Argon-CO2. I have different guns for every purpose, and even run inner-outersheild as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I ran LN-25s while in the Ironworkers union for years and never thought much into it lol. Looks like I have some more reading to do! Thanks for that info. -Crazy Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Ivan you are correct that short arc mig off a CC power source doesn't run particularly well. The VS feeder can't adjust the wire fast enough to mimic CV and give you good results. This changes as you add more power though and start to push the unit up into globular or spray mode vs short arc. FC wire being smaller tends to go into spray at lower amps than solid wire. High amps makes doing thin material especially sheet metal difficult and out of position spray can be a challenge for many. The process also tends to lend itself to high deposition type welding with large diameter wires because of the high amps usually needed to make this work well. Given a choice, wire run on CV is almost always preferable as it gives you the most control. To the OP you might look into the Ready welder. http://readywelder.com/ A spoolgun type wire welder often favored by 4x4 guys. I've seen mixed reviews of these units. Those that rave about them usually can't weld well. "Squeezing a pigeon" is a polite way to describe their welds on average. Most people I know who weld for a living wouldn't rate what they do as "welding". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WisdomWarlord Posted May 4, 2014 Author Share Posted May 4, 2014 Hmm. Arftist, thank you. You're objections to carbon arc are the same ones I've been curious about myself. Since I don't have a place I feel is safe for welding, I haven't tried yet, and so I don't know how wildly the heat will vary or how far I can weld before it's time to recharge. I hope you're wrong, but I won't be surprised if your right on the money. I haven't looked much into the alternatives you've mentioned because some I've never heard of, and some I know so little about I'm not willing to go out on that thin of a limb. You've given me some great things to consider and look into. I am serious about this so I will learn and ask more. I do hope carbon arc isn't as senseless as you say, but again, I won't be surprised if you're right on it too. DSW, yeah, I've looked into the Readywelder. The reviews are varied enough that I can't tell if the problems people say they have are from lack of skill, poor equipment, both, or neither. Way too many questions for me to justify the cost. If I come across one I'll try it out. I can mig a little, and while I don't understand the settings very well, I could usually tell if my mig welding problems were from my hand or from the machine settings. As a machinist, the shop mig had an automatic settings mode. His name was Randy! :) I'd call Randy, he'd look at what I was doing, turned the dials and off I would go. I know, not a good way to learn, but I wasn't a welder, I was a machinist, so it worked then. Of course, I now wish I had spend more time learning to weld. Live and learn. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Look into what the off road guys do for welding in the bush. They usualy hook way more than 2 batteries together. There are also welding outfits that are run by a truck engine, and attach like an alternator. They could also be hooked up to a generator. As for brazing look at a resistance type soldering unit. Essentially hook up the contacts, and apply power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 you may get a reasonable weld time using the batteries used on electric fork trucks, these are often single cells 18 to 24" tall stacked in a stout metal case, a battery pack is probably at least 1 ton and probably much more, as they are mostly single cells it would be easy to reconfigure them to give lower voltage but higher current and longer use. charging would be a problem and remember that you will need to put in about 15 times as much power when charging as the batteries will give you in use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 WW, your intent is somewhat unclear, however if you feel the "need" to use carbon arc then use it. You'll probably get to understand why that process is no longer use in that form! If you want to weld where there is no wall socket ? Then get an inverter welder a 160amp unit will run off a small genset and/or a small 12 to 220v inverter that you can fit to your 4 x 4(keep engine running whilst using) with a small welding machine like this you will be able to tig and arc weld. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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