Mary Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Why is cast iron bad for an anvil?? Mary New member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Too soft and no rebound. You work twice as hard on a cast iron anvil vs one with a hardened face plus you leave a plethora of marks - even if you are careful and never hit cold steel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 An anvil made of only cast iron will chip, deform and by and large be a waste of money. There were several brands of anvils made with cast iron bodies and tool steel faces. I have not used one so I can't give them a fair shake as far as to the quality. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Pook Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 And theres nothing wrong with an all Cast STEEL anvil if made from decent material and heattreated correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Probably the best know tool steel face cast iron body anvil was made by Fisher. I have owned several and currently my main shop anvil is a 500# Fisher. It has a great thick steel face that bounces a hammer very well and it's a very quiet anvil compared to the 400# Trenton that sits off to the side, or the Hey-Budden, or the Arm&Hammer. Another common brand was Vulcan. I have owned and used several of them and the face was generally not as hard or as thick as the Fisher and I consider them to be not in the same class at all as a Fisher. As to why steel instead of cast iron: take a cast iron skillet and kit it sharply in the middle of the back with a good sized hammer. Then pick up the pieces and try to apologize to the skillet owner/user. Take a cheap pressed steel skillet, do the same. Then gently hammer out the dent and return it with no problem. Cast iron is brittle and generally soft. Steel is tough and can be anything from soft to quite hard. Note also that I have been in HF stores where the help told me A: there is no difference between cast iron and cast steel and B: that their cast iron anvils were cast steel---or to put it another way---the HF staff were completely clueless and should not be depended on. There is a fellow on E-Bay selling HF cast iron anvils and misrepresenting them as "professional grade" for smithing. He is either clueless or has no concept of the truth in advertising statutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerald Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Of course, if you are putting off learning to smith until the "perfect" anvil comes along, it might be worth the $30 (HF sale price) of a cast iron anvil just so you can get started with something. I'm not sure that the regular price of $50 would be advisable, it's up to you. As you learn hammer control, forging technique, etc on your "cheapo" you can be looking for a better anvil. The important thing, IMHO, is to get started learning and training your muscles and eye toward those forging skill that will serve you well on about any anvil that you may come across in the future. When you find that perfect Peter Wright (after months of looking) and you buy it, donate your cheapo to someone else who is trying to get started but is delaying his/her training until the "good" anvil comes along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmercier Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Another note about both fisher and vulcan anvils. While they had a cast iron base and a tool steel face, there are many types of cast iron. The cast iron used for these anvils was a ductile cast iron which was (relativly) maleable. Most 'modern' cast iron anvils not only lack the tool steel face, but are made of grey cast iron which is not maleable and chips / shatters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psilogen Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 I trust that everyone here has read (or, in my case, borrowed) Anvils in America by Richard Postman? If you are looking to buy an anvil, that is the book to carry with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Of course you could pick up a heavy chunk of steel at a scrap yard that will be a better anvil than a cast iron one and be CHEAPER and so not slow down your starting and give you enough money left over for a hammer or two; shoot I once found a broken knuckle off a RR car coupler that I used as an anvil for free walking the ditch alonside an abandoned track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerald Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Yes, a chunk of steel would work, and may be cheaper, but with your CI jewell, at least you'd have a horn (probably ugly) that you'd be able to learn to use and you'd have a hardy hole, too. Both of these faetures are things that a new comer needs to have available in orfer to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 I have found that this is not really the case. I teach my students to bend things on the flat of the face even when making an S hook. If you have a hardy you can use it in a postvise---something you *should* buy as there just isn't a good replacement for one. Or a hole in the anvil stump. Also with a post vise you can collect items that have various curves on then if you need someting to work off of rather than a horn. OTOH take a look at Marco/Krieger Armory - Rapiers and Accessories for a thinking outside of the box 120# anvil with "horn" that cost them some labour and $25 And yes I am the "Thomas" mentioned---and have the mate to that forklift tine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerald Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Thomas is right. There are many uses for a piece of flat steel and many techniques that one could learn to perform on it. If a person is dead set on owning and using an anvil, and is delaying getting started smithing until he/she finds one. There are alternatives to use and learn on until that perfect one comes along, and one of those alternatives could reasonably be a Cast Iron Anvil Shaped Object (ASO). If it get you to work quicker, with a tool that will be similar to what your objective tool would be, go for it and don't listen to the ridicule that you will hear for using a sub-standard piece of junk. You won't be able to hear the comments anyway as you'll be busy working (and learning). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Pook Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I have found that this is not really the case. I teach my students to bend things on the flat of the face even when making an S hook. If you have a hardy you can use it in a postvise---something you *should* buy as there just isn't a good replacement for one. Or a hole in the anvil stump. Also with a post vise you can collect items that have various curves on then if you need someting to work off of rather than a horn. OTOH take a look at Marco/Krieger Armory - Rapiers and Accessories for a thinking outside of the box 120# anvil with "horn" that cost them some labour and $25 And yes I am the "Thomas" mentioned---and have the mate to that forklift tine Now thats a nice chunk of good steel to have for a anvil. I would love to have that sitting my shop next to my "real" anvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmercier Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 http://www.tharkis.com/images/4140anvil1.jpg This is to show that you dont need anything fancy for an anvil. This thing works great. It's a little bit softer than wanted, due to problems with trying to quench the end of a piece of steel this large with a home forge setup, but it's quite tough, and more than adequate for almost any forging you could want to do. I went and sold my smaller shop anvil (125lb peter wright, kept the 150lb peter wright) after I got this, because this was more portable and, if anything, has better rebound. This is a 75lb cutoff from a piece of 4140, heat treated at home, and with feet welded onto it so it can be lab bolted down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerald Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Jmercier, 4140 is pretty tough stuff. Do you think it would have worked OK without any heat treating? I guess I'm asking if you tried to forge on it before you heat treated it and found it too soft. I like the weld on feet idea, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 That's a lovely bladesmiths anvil. You might make a stump for it with a couple of blocks screwed down parallel on it so you could flip it on it's side and use the curved portion for drawing out on---it's light enough that you could flip it back and forth pretty easily. Honest Bob sometimes demo's with a chunk of large shafting for his anvil and he carved it's stump so it will fit right in either orientation. And things like that are *anvils*; just not London Pattern anvils---which is only a fairly recent fairly limited geographical exampls of anvils anyway. Did you try to heat treat with a high pressure hose? Dipping that much mass in a bucket won't work as the steam zone will keep the heat from being abstracted as fast as necessary---why anvils were heat treated by having a column of water fall from a height onto their faces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadNuts Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I can't find an anvil anywhere right now. But I did manage to find a pierce of rail (for a train to roll on.) It seems hard and it works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Welcome aboard Jumbly. Rail is good to use. Hopefully it has saw cut ends so you can stand it on end and have more mass under the face of the "anvil" Rail also gives some decent swage shapes by flipping the piece around if it is small enough. It can be ground easily to make other useful shapes. Getting hammer on hot metal is the most satisfying part of this. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Ok... Now I am neither smart nor all that knowledgeable... So with that disclaimer take what I have to say with the appropriate heed Its all about physics.. A action has a reaction and the details are pretty easy to see in real life, Best thing I can think of as an example is a rubber "super" ball. Take your super ball and chuck it at a concrete slab as hard as you can.. its likely to bounce clear over into the next county someplace... Now if you can find it.. with the same force throw that sucker into a nice sandbox.... Not going to get much bounce ( read results for effort expended ) Why? The same effort was put into the throw so you should get the same result? Nope because the sand is a thief... It absorbs and displaces all the energy you put in and returns very little to the ball. Same thing is happening on a dead anvil. Rather than return the energy expended in the form of "work" done on your forging. it sucks it up giving you far less "result" This is also why a bigger anvil is better, the more mass and the harder the face the more "work" is done with each blow. Now there are a lot of things that are as or more important. A starting blacksmith has much better things to worry about than anvil efficiency, however I think in many ways a chunk of Rail or a nice big block of steel can be superior to a gray iron ASO (anvil shaped object) Cast iron anvils do have there place, I have a real cute one that makes a dandy doorstop. Like I said, Im not all that smart, but I can tell you worrying about perfecting your hammer swing and forging style... Practice practice practice... Do it on a cast iron anvil for that matter... Those are whats important... Time learning technique... I am a relative newbie to forging with about 7 years playing around, I can tell you its only within the last year that I learned to swing a hammer... and not to say that I mastered it, only that I learned how inefficient and ineffective my "technique" was and how important that simple "swing" is My point is.... When you can forge a long taper on a 1" round bar in one heat its going to be really important that you have the right anvil, its going to make a huge difference in your life.... If you cant forge a long taper on a 5/16 round bar in one heat... What kind of anvil you have or how big it is... is not a huge factor in your performance.... I am a firm believer in quality tools... I collect tools as a hobby and I use many tools in my "collection" to pay my bills as well as pass the time in an enjoyable manner. It is simply more fun to use a quality tool... Its more fun to own a finely crafted and well cared for anvil than a chunk of "gray" iron pored in China by some poor guy making $.28 a day... I know I dont think like everybody but If you had two people both rebuilding a 1976 AMC pacer and one had the cheapest and basic crap you can buy at harbor freight... The other had a full complement of Snap on tools... All other things being equal... The Snap on guy would be having a much better day.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Parker Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I transitioned from a Harbor Freight ASO. Much easier to use than a rock or the head of an old sledgehammer. I found the ASO useful but added a 3-inch steel plate to the top. I welded little flanges to the sides and a bolt that fit in the hardy hole. The steel plate snapped on to the top stayed put and served me well until I moved up another notch. I have several anvils now but keep the ASO as I have a few hardie tools that fit it and if I plan my projects right, I can set up the different anvils with different tools to speed me up. The one thing I wish I could figure out is how to find/use a lightweight anvil magnetized to draw the hammer forward and then reverses to push the hammer away. And a portable but solid anvil stand, with adjustable heights. When that is all worked out, I’ll design an entire blacksmith shop that will fit into a car trunk. Or maybe I’ll quit day dreaming and actually work. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgtwister Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 now why would you quit day dreaming isn't that how you come up with ideas to make or do things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Parker Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 True but mostly, I do it to keep from ever starting the work. The design of the best project doesn't matter if you never start it. According to my wife, I am getting lazy. I need to remember to someday prove her wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 No more responses or questions from Mary or did we just scare her off? Sort of weird isn't it? Ask a question and never reply to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I love my cast anvil, I've been using it for about the last 2 years, it has a tool steel face, and it is sooooo much quieter than any of my other anvils, it also has much better rebound. I have read the posts here, and wonder, "is there so much difference across the field of anvils?" and the answer appears to be "yes"! Just saturday we had a hammer in, and we tested 2 anvils, a cast and a steel, the cast had much better rebound, and was not near as ringy. As long as it has a good steel face, I'll go with cast anytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) Divermike the issue is not with cast iron bodied anvils with a tool steel face. It's with the all cast iron ASO's. Try a HF all cast iron ASO for a while and watch it dent from hitting hot coil spring on it---not from hitting it with a hammer, but from the hot steel denting the anvil! The all cast iron anvils are the ones we are trying to warn folks away from. When HF had the cast steel Russian anvils most folks were happy with them as an entry level anvil---but as soon as HF found that they were usable as a tool they discontinued them and went to straight cast iron ASO's from China. We're trying to not confuse folks; but we all like Fisher's with a cast iron body and a steel face (and most find Vulcan's ok as well). I have a 515# Fisher that I love as my main shop anvil and have the 410# Trenton as "back-up"; but having used an all cast iron anvil I would not have one in the shop save as a doorstop! Edited November 23, 2009 by ThomasPowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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