Kifer

Can anyone help me with the techniques to forge this?

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I've got the taper to a point, but I'm struggleing with the symetrical points on the oposite end. If someone has a video of a technique I could use to forge it would be very helpful.

post-48321-0-62765000-1385411366_thumb.j

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Tha is a fine piece and if you forged it you are all set...or shall I guess it is the item you wish to make?

That in the pic is forged using basic smith skills,,easily acquired with long hours in the shop,,,a bit faster if youi seek some personal or group guidance and continue to practice those skills. that is not a starting  point to learn to forge.

SInce that is likely considered a knife,,,you may wish to look in the knife section for more ideas? The knfe making lessons are in there.

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I started about a year ago, forging once or twice a month. Recently i've been putting much more time into it and can see a difference in what I can do with the metal. I had a request from my brother's girlfriend to make this (used as a hair pin) and I have no idea how to do the symmetrical points. I'm assuming I'll need some new tools, which is always exciting.
 

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Looking at the knife forging 101, looks like an awesome resource. I'll be back if I cant find anything in the knife making section. Thanks!

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I've got the taper to a point, but I'm struggleing with the symetrical points on the oposite end. If someone has a video of a technique I could use to forge it would be very helpful.

 

If I were tackling that item I would be considering using hot cut chisels to form the end and side cut outs

 

The bevel side on the hot cut gives you the finish with minimum work, then you can draw the taper and finish as required.

 

These pics may illustrate what I mean

 

post-816-0-03482200-1385416410_thumb.jpg  post-816-0-67942300-1385416439_thumb.jpg 

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If I were tackling that item I would be considering using hot cut chisels to form the end and side cut outs

 

The bevel side on the hot cut gives you the finish with minimum work, then you can draw the taper and finish as required.

 

These pics may illustrate what I mean

 

attachicon.gifCopy of Bracket backplate lower end details (1).jpg  attachicon.gifCopy of Bracket backplate lower end details.jpg

Removing the material hadnt occured to me, thanks for pointing that out!

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I would use matching top and bottom tools (fullers with large radius) a striker might help, or a guillotine tool. Personally I would use fullering dies on a power hammer but that is not nessisary.

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It is a little difficult to determine how to forge it without dimensions to give an indication of how much material needs to be moved.  It will also be difficult to get the work as smooth as in the picture if you are only forging.  That said, I expect the piece is probably pretty small if it is intended to go into the hair.  Even though it is likely only 3 or 4 inches long, I would suggest you might be better off making such an item out of wood rather than steel.  Wood would be lighter and will also be easier work with.  

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It is a little difficult to determine how to forge it without dimensions to give an indication of how much material needs to be moved.  It will also be difficult to get the work as smooth as in the picture if you are only forging.  That said, I expect the piece is probably pretty small if it is intended to go into the hair.  Even though it is likely only 3 or 4 inches long, I would suggest you might be better off making such an item out of wood rather than steel.  Wood would be lighter and will also be easier work with.  

 

And less likely to mistaken for a weapon. 

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It is a little difficult to determine how to forge it without dimensions to give an indication of how much material needs to be moved.  It will also be difficult to get the work as smooth as in the picture if you are only forging.  That said, I expect the piece is probably pretty small if it is intended to go into the hair.  Even though it is likely only 3 or 4 inches long, I would suggest you might be better off making such an item out of wood rather than steel.  Wood would be lighter and will also be easier work with.  

Good point, wood would be much easier to work with. But as I said, it was a request from a friend. The picture I posted of it is a 3D model of what she wanted, thats why it looks smooth and uniform.

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If you are trying to get the two sides alike, forge the whole thing as close as you can to the desired shape.

Scribe a line down the center.

Pick out the side that you like better.

Lay the forging on the table and trace around the desired shape.

Turn it over so that the less desirable side is over the tracing to determine what needs to be changed. 

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to be a useable hairpin, scaled to that image, steel is not a good choice of material....nor is forging actually, it can be done faster and better with a belt sander and angle grinder with flap disk. But if she has an extraordinary amount of hair to pin......then it's a viable option.

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I was thinking perhaps Ti; but would try to avoid giving a friend something that can land them in jail.

 

Why don't you prototype in the purple heart or bloodwood?

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If this was me making these and having to make a fair number of them, I would make a set of top and bottom swages to swage them to a round preform then flatten them to thickness.  If needed then I could also make a top and bottom pin guided tool (we call them german pin dies) and stamp the handle to thickness in the pin dies after making the preform in the top and bottom swages.

Depends on how many you need to make and if they will be a repeat job, and how long are you prepared to muck around with tools/dies etc to get the right sizes to begin with.

 

Phil

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Were it I, I would pick a piece of steel the same width and thickness  as the maximum dimensions towards the rear. Then I would fuller/pinch the rearmost section to rough dimensions and draw out the point.  Steel will be a bit heavy for a hair pin or the like, but not too bad.

 

The key is going to be using a set of files  and sand paper to bring it to the final shape and finish.  Too many folks thing about simply forging it to the finished dimensions when there's a lot of touch up work that can and should be done.

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Side question for John B regarding that chiseling technique: is the chisel hammered in perpendicular to the stock, or at an angle to produce such a uniform cutout and bevel? The first pic shows the chisel inclined but I can't tell if that is for clarity or usage.

I think a spring fuller or guillotine could get you symmetric points after a few practice runs on a flat bar. You could also try starting with something like 3/8" round and fullering in a groove around the entire bar on either side of where you would want points (leave the center shorter than you want the final length, it will stretch out in a minute). This will isolate the long taper, the center body, and give you a good place to line up a hot cut hardie to cut the end and start your handle end taper for you. Then you can carefully draw out the center (without mashing the ridges you just forged in) to a uniform diameter and to the design length. You can also draw out your pin taper and finish as desired. Now you have a 3 dimensional version of your pin, take another heat on the handle and lay it flat on the anvil and flatten out the protruding ribs (from one side only! Or 90 degrees to each other if you want to get fancy) that you left high with the spring fuller until they are flush with the rest of the stock. Your call if you want to knock the center part to oval or flat or just leave it as forged, and how you want to finish the transition from the pin to the first set of points.

For what it's worth though, I think steel is going to be too heavy to be practical with those dimensions (relative mass of 'handle' to pin, regardless of actual length). I recently sheared a twist trying to make a hook and repurposed it into just such a hair pin, and with about 2 inches of handle and 4.25 inches of pin (parent stock 1/4" square, which is what the handle still reflects, pin is round taper at a sloppy 400 grit finish) it falls out of my fiancé's hair within a minute of her sitting still and not moving. And thats considerably more heavily weighted towards the pin end than your proposed design, YMMV

As always, love to see pics of what you end up developing :)

Edited for klutz premature incomplete phone post =\

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As to my self, I would do the basic forging in round stock, if using steel spring steel would be my choice, once the basic handle profile is forged with round stock, flatten it. That meaning forging the handle with a top and bottom fuller, and fullering the transition the the shaft, then flatten it, switch to flat tongs and draw out the shaft. Like the others steel may be to heavy, unless made in very thin profiles. "Action wood" for bow making would be a thought in my book. It's a wood, fiberglass composit. Then again TI or work hardens aluminum. If this is intended as a safty tool, I would certainly read the knife section, and other posts as to testing. Bad enugh if she ever uses them on another person, triply so if it failes in use.

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here are some pic's of the pin I mentioned, you can see how much mass is in the pin side and how much is in the handle side, and where that puts the balance point.  print out a flat view of your model tape it to some cardboard and cut it out and you can approximate how it will balance in use.  it wont be hugely accurate because it represents a flat version, while yours will have a thicker body than the taper, so the real thing will balance more towards the end of the 'handle'.

 

I bring up the point about balance because the farther the center of mass gets from where the pin is actually held within the hair the more it will want to rotate and fall out, especially if it is being bounced around with normal wear.

 

post-26562-0-07903000-1385483722_thumb.j

 

post-26562-0-58990400-1385483738_thumb.j

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Side question for John B regarding that chiseling technique: is the chisel hammered in perpendicular to the stock, or at an angle to produce such a uniform cutout and bevel? The first pic shows the chisel inclined but I can't tell if that is for clarity or usage.

 

The chisel appears to be inclined in the picture as it was being aligned to meet the required profile. In use it would be vertical,

 

The hot cut can be rotated on larger surfaces to produce a finished sized hole, rather than using a large punch and drift.

 

The chamfer on the tools edge can be internal or external to give the required finish on the component.

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Thanks John, I have only used my half round chisel (same bevel as yours, would that be considered exterior?) to take advantage of the vertical plane of the cut so far.  just wanted to check if the chisel bevel alone was sufficient to get that effect or if you needed to 'scoop' it at an angle, for lack of a better word.

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In that situation, I rely on the bevel for the finish, and use the tool vertical

 

Usually I use this technique on relatively thin materials up to 3/8" (10mm) for best results, probably "scoop" the angle on thicker materials or for different uses, as it alters the profile being cut

 

If the item is to be symmetrical, then vertical is the way to go,

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Wow I appreciate all of the respones! I'll definitely post pictures with what I end up doing. Lots to consider now, going to have to speak with her to see how she wants it to end up. Again, thank you all for helping out with this.

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