Wildernessmedic Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Just curious are there quite a few quality swordsmiths around? Or are swordsmiths few and far between? I'd never seen quality swords, always cheap crap, up until looking around here and one or two other places. Now i'm getting into this for fun but just curious if there is still a market for hand crafted custom quality swords. The ones that do exist, is this their primary source of income/career? Or just a hobby they do and make a couple bucks to fund their hobby here and there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Professional swordsmithing is an extremely niche market. The required knowledge, skill, and equipment is a huge investment, resulting in beautiful, well-constructed, and EXPENSIVE swords. Off the top of my head, Ric Furrer from Door County Forgeworks, and David Delagardelle from Cedarlore Forge are two that I can think of. These gentlemen hand forge the swords they produce. There are companies that make "quality" swords with modern machining technology: Albion Swords in Wisconsin produces high-quality swords, but do not forge the blades or fittings. One reason you don't see many "quality" swords is that there are not many people who are willing to shell out thousands of dollars for an accurate recreation when they can pay $40 USD for a cheap stainless fantasy wall-hanger made in Pakistan. Basic economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 I make them, but dont make a big deal about it in forums or even on my commercial web site, because the term sword maker has become an idiot magnet. :( Even with a picture of a pattern welded katana with its price tag on the front web page, I get people asking for one with a $200 budget. Most of my hunting knives are more than that. many of course do know what to expect from a usable hand made blade, but plenty of people not paying attention, and thinking of box store prices. I send them to Albion, and those places because they make good quailty products for the price. At the other end of the scale, I send people to Rick Barret from Goshin Indiana, for accurate and well made, high end katana's. Most my swords are medieval types. Also add to the list Kevin Cashen in Michigan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildernessmedic Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 Ehh is a machines sword really quality? When they use mechanical fullering doesn't it tear up the hardened outer later formed from hammering? Excluding the idiot magnet term of a $200 cheap hand forged sword. Do those guys actually move swords and make a good chunk of change that they deserve for crafting one? Can they stay afloat as such for their trade or is it pretty much just a side thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 JPH on the forums here is a full time bladesmith who makes beautiful swords , as well as being an author on bladesmithing-4 books so far. He doesn't live that far from me, and he allowed me to swing by one day when I was in the area. I hope to one day be like him, and have my own business again doing something I love. His site is www.atar.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 What hardened outer layer formed by hammering? If you are working above the dislocation climb temperature the only hardening you are going to get is through heat treating and they heat treat too. In fact you are less likely to mess up the steel machining than forging with the possibility of burning the metal, decarburizing, grain growth and scaling. It's just forging is a whole lot more fun and you can work with metal that's not in bar shape, forging is often a lot faster than grinding too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Ehh is a machines sword really quality? When they use mechanical fullering doesn't it tear up the hardened outer later formed from hammering? Excluding the idiot magnet term of a $200 cheap hand forged sword. Do those guys actually move swords and make a good chunk of change that they deserve for crafting one? Can they stay afloat as such for their trade or is it pretty much just a side thing? Wilderness, Your statement about the fuller concerns me a bit. Please explain how hammering makes the steel hard. Are you referring to work hardening by creating strain int he steel via pounding? Such an effect is negated upon heating to normalize after forging is complete. As to market and such for modern swordmaking: It is a sliver of a niche market and one sells to a small cross-section of clients. If you are honest about your product then the pool of clients gets even smaller. If you have other skills I suggest you use them and not turn full time to swords. As to "deserving" a wage of certain work: It has intrinsic value to the one making the thing, but do not expect that value to be shared by others. In the end one makes because one can not help but to make. I appreciate a Jackson Pollock painting, but I do not want to buy one. I understand some of the work of Damien Hirst, but I have no room for the sharktank. To make art like a well done sword (one worth making) is not done to sell...it is a foolish thing to make in this day and age is it not?..it is done because it is in you and needs to get out. If you find someone who wants to participate in the experience by owning the work, well...that is good too. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Amen Ric, very true. hourly shop rates do not come into play when making a blade. it is only done when I say its ready and not until, reguardless of tiime it takes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildernessmedic Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 In "A birth of a sword" it explains thy machine fullering tears of a layer of hardened metal created by hammering, whereas proper fullering presses it down creating a grow rather than cutting it out. Is that not correct? Anyone seen that video? I'm not asking because I want to give up everything and become a sword maker haha I can't make anything! I was just curious. I've seen some beautiful pieces here and wanted to know if they are making a living off of such talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Think of a piece of clay. You can make a groove in the clay either by cutting a piece out. Or you can press a groove into the clay with the side of your finger. If you press the side of your finger into the clay it will not only make a groove, but it will also widen and spread the width of the piece of clay. As for any occupation, some people do better financially than others regardless of the artistic medium that they work in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 not everything we watch in video, not even History channel, is acccurate. Hammering only causes minimal work hardening and thats not anything at all at forging heat, so it is false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildernessmedic Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 Strange. The video seemed legit. He made a beautiful inlaid sword. At least I was fun to watch I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 The key phrase in that section of video is "while the external layer gets denser..." In no way, shape, or form can you increase the density of any solid by hand hammering. This erroneous phenomenon is also called "edge packing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildernessmedic Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 Ahh so you are familiar with what I'm talking about. So it is complete bs. Is everything else in the video pretty accurate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 pretty much. Edge packing is an old and pervasive idea; look in The Art of Blacksmithing by Alex Bealer, published in the late sixties, and it's still there. While edge packing doesn't actually affect the molecular density, it does help refine shape and contour, though. Brian Brazeal calls that planishing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonW Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 I'm thinking the idea of "edge packing" may have been a carry over from before the Iron Age. From what I understand copper and bronze were able to be work hardened, were the metal became more hard and brittle as smiths worked copper nuggets or bronze castings to shape. These techniques must have been tried on iron & steel over the ages with "apparent" success by smiths who had not yet discovered or realized how to heat treat steel. Work hardening or edge packing steel as an idea must have kept popping up throughout the years even to current times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 What hardened outer layer formed by hammering? If you are working above the dislocation climb temperature the only hardening you are going to get is through heat treating and they heat treat too. In fact you are less likely to mess up the steel machining than forging with the possibility of burning the metal, decarburizing, grain growth and scaling. It's just forging is a whole lot more fun and you can work with metal that's not in bar shape, forging is often a lot faster than grinding too. The important concept that they unfortunately don't spend the time explaining in that video (If its the one I am thinking of) is that the fullering, be it hammered in or machined out or even scraped out, is done BEFORE heat treating which includes the heating to harden the metal and tempering to toughen and remove the brittleness of the hardened steel. Not after as the video seems to suggest. And as Thomas implies above, the heat treating is not simply an outer surface treatment. Heat treating, when done properly, is all the way through the blade. Furthermore, if machine fullering was to be done after hardening and tempering (difficult as it may be) there should still be hardened and tempered steel underneath. As Steve mentioned, the History Channel is wrought (pun sort of intended) with inaccuracies when it comes to metal smithing. They gear the programming to the general audience rather than experienced smith. I remember one show on blade smithing (could be same one) that referred to the heat treat process of hardening (heating to non magnetic and quenching to cool quickly) as "tempering". This is a very common misunderstanding. Hope this helps. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Definitely a hold over from the old days. It does not make it denser but is trying to restrain grain growth by renucleating new crystals from dislocation rich areas. This was a problem with some of the very early steels; however if you are using anything made in the last 100 years or so it's not needed as thermal cycling will do a much BETTER job of grain refinement on modern steels. Also modern alloys often have elements in them to reduce grain growth and we tend not to work our steels at as high a temperature as they did when all smiths were used to working wrought iron. So it's like a mechanic telling you you should repour the main bearings of your car every 5000 miles because that's what you did with model T's. Note that production values of videos have more to do with the skill of making videos than the skill of making blades! And, unfortunately, a lot of the profit margin in selling stuff can be the hype you surround it with. "Forged in the dark of the moon and quenched in blood" sells for an extra hundred dollars or more to certain folks who believe that makes a difference than "forged in a dimly lit smithy and quenched in brine". There are some makers who take this to extremes and tend to get laughed at by folks with more of a background in metallurgy and less of one in hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildernessmedic Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 Hahahaha. Good stuff I learned a lot thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 There is more information if you wish to learn more...start with the sections on heat treating on this site..and a copy of The Complete Bladesmith by the above mentioned Jim hrousalas. is vital for anyone wishing to learn more..most libraries can get one if they do not have it on a shelf. after a short read you can decide to purchase one or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 In the USA, most libraries can Inter Library Loan, AKA ILL, books from an amazing number of other libraries. My small town in NM had 90 other libraries in their association including a bunch of University ones. It's a great way to preview a book you are thinking of buying---especially when the price is over US$100! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildernessmedic Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 I absolutely HATE having to have a book brought in from another library. But I guess I have no choice for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 You *always* have a choice. You can buy books sight unseen---works better if you have money to burn. You can avoid reading books at all---a popular choice You can wait till you visit someone with a copy or can look over a copy at a conference. I'm sort of like Erasmus: " 'When I have a little money, I buy books; and if I have any left, I buy food and clothes." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildernessmedic Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 Hmm that quote sounds like me, only not with books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenaghan Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I've been making swords for alittle over 3 years now and other blades for several more years... I consider myself a swordsmith, maybe still a appentice without a master... Do I sell swords? NO I do not, to ask a fair price most the reponses I get are rude and insulting, investing a huge amount of time and money into this with sometimes over 100+ hours into a blade and get offered like Steve said a couple hundred dollars! But I'm paying a women 2000$ to take pictures at my wedding and she was one of the cheaper ones!!!!! sorry starting to rant I make swords cause I love to make swords, if I sell a blade the moneys going to cover travel costs to hammer-ins or meet other smiths to improve my craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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