Starting out on a rough note

[ChiefCodeX]

I would like to start a blacksmith shop. I'm a broke 17 year old junior in highscool. I'm curently still working at my first job and I hate it. Now with wrestling season coming up I can only work on Sundays. The inspiration behind opening a blacksmith shop was that I would be able to work when I want. That means i could work any time i free time. My question is how do I get started. I just got started blacksmithing and haven't really made anything. I know I should save up some money before I go completely dependent on this shop, but other than that I don't know much about running a buisness or how to build up my skill enough to sell my work.
 

[DSW]

I've seen a lot of guys who start their own businesses only to have them fail. It's not that they can't do the work, in fact several were very talented, it's that they can't manage the business side of things.

 

 

You need to track all your costs. Most guys don't have issues managing the "big" expenses, it's all the little ones that get forgotten that kill them when they all add up. If you are going "pro" vs just doing this as side work to supplement a hobby, it's critical you know exactly what everything costs. Phone, insurance, fuel to deliver finished products or pick up materials, vehicle expenses, taxes licenses and business fees ( it gets even worse if someone works for you), shop overhead ( rent, electric, heat/AC), , repair costs on equipment, new tooling/equipment, office supplies, advertising and business cards, accounting fees,.. and so much more and we really haven't started talking about the projects yet, Then there is all the project costs, fuel for your forge, welding rods, oxy/acet or welding gas, sand paper or grinding disks, paint or finishing supplies, hardware and fasteners ( if you supply them with hooks and so on)...

 

I see a lot of guys who build something and the steel costs them say $25 and they sell it for $50 and think they made money. In reality chances are they didn't make $25 they though they did because they didn't add in fuel cost for the forge, grinding wheels and so on. All of a sudden that $25 gets whittled down quick. That false sense they made money however fools them into thinking they are doing well, then all of a sudden they can't figure out why they have no money.

 

My own small business can easily eat up almost $2K a month is just incidentals like insurance, vehicle fuel, phone and so on before we ever start talking about materials or even my pay. It takes quite a bit of work to cover that cost and you had better track them well or next thing you know you are loosing money.

 

Learning to estimate the time it will take to do a project is another key item. If you need to do 1 or 10 of something and the customer wants to know in advance what this is going to cost them, then you need to be able to guesstimate how long it's going to take you so you know what to charge them. In some cases it's cheaper to buy a specialized tool to go faster than it is to do the work by hand. The same goes if you have to make that tool or jig. You need to account for that time as well.

 

 

Keep in mind you also have to keep a fairly substantial reserve of cash on hand. This is to cover the next months bills ( or more) etc if you don't make the money you expect then. I do construction and as it gets cold I know my work load will drop off as Thanksgiving/Christmas approaches and probably won't pick back up until after tax season ends when things get warm again and people have some free cash to spend. That means I have to carry enough reserve to cover all my costs over those months until I get work again. You can't just rush out and spend money you made from a big job in June. You need to control your spending because you may well need that money in November. Right now I'm looking at suddenly needing to drop $8 to $10 K into my work truck because the turbo just blew and it's just out of warranty. That's a huge nut to swallow at one shot and it's going to strip a huge amount of my reserves at the time of year when things are already normally getting tight.

 

 

I'm not trying to scare you off, I think owning and running your own business has a lot of benefits. It also has a lot of headaches. Expect to work long hours, 6 to 7 days a week, year round for little pay if you are serious about doing this full time. The advantage is that you don't have to answer to anyone else ( except the customer), can take time off when you choose and often have the satisfaction of doing something you love as well as many others. However with that comes the headaches of worrying if you will have money for food when things slow down, taking hours and hours beating the pavement looking for work or chasing down payments, knowing you have to work even if you are sick because a job has to be done on time and there's no one else to do it... Many times though it's a lot easier to work 40 for someone else and collect a check, then go home and do what you want.

 

 

Think about looking into some small business classes at local colleges or tech schools. They often run night classes. It can really pay to get some time under your belt also in the field before going it on your own. Even if it's not in the field you want to work ( not a lot of blacksmiths looking for helpers in general), but getting an understanding of the business and estimating end of say contracting work can easily cross over. Keep in mind that most jobs they won't spoon feed you this info. You'll have to pay attention and ask questions to learn this stuff.  It might also pay to start out doing this part time while you use  your full time job to support you and keep food on the table while you acquire what you need to run your business. Time management is one area that's easy to work on. Any project, even if it's doing the dishes or cleaning the house. Think about how long it should take you to do the job, and what level will be considered "done", then when you get to that finish point, take a look at how close your estimate was. Did you forget anything, like not remembering that the sink in the kitchen was full of dishes that added to the time?

 

 

Good luck.

[Glenn]

Read what DSW said a couple more times. It is a great post.

 

Learn the business of business, Seek out those who are successful and learn from them. Learn how and why they succeed. Learn how to interact with people. Learn how to regroup after a setback and come back stronger. Learn not to allow your personal feelings interfere with your business, as there will be times when you should give the customer $20 and bid them farewell so you can get back to doing business.

 

Learn the subject of your business and know of which you speak. Seek out the very best and learn from them. Take their classes, courses, and instruction and apply it to your business. Keep current and embrace new technology otherwise you will no longer have the advantage. This is life long learning experience so take advantage of every opportunity.

 

Surround yourself with the very best people. Learn to give them the responsibility to assist you with your business as it grows. Encourage and support them as they are the gears that make the machine run.

 

Put your priorities in order.

1) You come first, Without you nothing else matters.

2) Family comes second. 

 

3) Leave this slot blank

 

4) List those things that you consider important. 

 

#3 is always left blank so that in any emergency you can move it to the #3 slot and not disturb the order of things.

 

 

All the best and please keep us informed as to your progress.

[ianinsa]

I could not agree more with the previous posts, however remember this can be a lucrative career providing you can occasionally  give up on a few unessential luxuries like food, shelter and family now and then. It can be a hard, unforgiving and rewarding career. You just need to learn at least one new thing every day for the rest of your life.

 

Ian

[ChiefCodeX]

DSW I understand what you mean by the little things. Fortunately some of those things I don't pay for at least not yet. I won't have to worry about electrical, water, ac, or stuff that comes with the monthly bill of the shop. I'm still a teenager living with my parents and my shop is an area behind the shed in our backyard. Not to say I don't have to keep track of the rest of it.

I was thinking about starting out by selling knives at gunshows, there's a goods market for them there. Also I could sell knives to people I know as I already have a list of 10+ people who said they would buy one from me. I could do this to start off then ease my way into contract work

 

bold text added by mod

[ThomasPowers]

Excellent and so when it becomes a business and suddenly your prices jump because you then have to take in account all the incidentals your customers will have no problem with that?

 

San Antonio should have classes set up by the SBA, (Small Business Administration) TAKE THEM NOW, start off the way you plan to continue.  I know a professional swordmaker that one year just how the depreciation of his tools was calculated for taxes was his entire profit for the year. (and he was selling multi thousand dollar swords in the 1980's!)

 

Working only when you want to is a description of a Hobby not a job.  Look into having another skill to fall back on/pay for the needed equipment.  Welding is often a good mix with blacksmithing.

[Brian Thomas]

Working only when you want to is a description of a Hobby not a job.  Look into having another skill to fall back on/pay for the needed equipment.  Welding is often a good mix with blacksmithing.

 

While everything that was said preceding this post should be considered sound advice; this tidbit in particular is GOLDEN.

[SoCal Dave]

Make a few knives and try selling them at the local craft fair, but first, go to the local craft fair to see your competition.  Find out the prices for a booth, and figure how many you have to sell to pay for the booth.  What happens if someone comes up and wants you to make a style of knife you've never made before? I've always believed that if you want to be an independent business person, you must and will work longer and harder for a long time than other people who are only employees.  Good luck.  

[Jerry W.]

Consider joining Balcones Forge.  They will be meeting in Hunt, Texas on the 23rd.  There will be a demonstration where Gary Hilton will be forging a Viking Axe.  I am very disappointed that I won't be able to attend this one.  We have several members that are exceptional knifemakers.  Joe Travieso has built a hydraulic forging press out of a log splitter and has demonstrated for us twice in the past two years his methods of making damascus steel.  At the last demo, he finished a couple of blades.  Tim Tellander and Aaron Tilton both produce some very nice work and both are in your neighborhood.  Johnny Stout has weekend hammer-ins at his place just out of New Braunfels a couple of times of year.  Take a look at his website, you will be amazed with his work. 

 

It is a great group that is very willing to share their knowledge and skill.  It would be great to see you there. 

 

Jerry

[Steve Sells]

From runing my own electrical contracting shop for 16 years, to smithing part time,  I have found out that the acountants suggest we have 6 months operating expence on hand as a cash reserve. 

 

Also it helps if we actually have something to sell.  Since you said you don't yet, this is a good time as any to learn to smith and start putting way cash for start up operations.  Dont quit your day job yet, even if you are skilled, it will take a while to build a client base.

 

FYI  at gun shows people go to buy guns, spending thousands,  if they want a knife while there, they refuse to pay much more than $50 or so.

 

Good luck

[HWooldridge]

The previous comments are all relevant and spot on. From a regional perspective, I live in New Braunfels and have worked in this area for well over 30 years.  I've always had a day job with metalwork on the side.  Competition is tough because of the relatively close proximity to Mexico and all of that ironwork that comes up from across the border.  However, there's still plenty of work if you can find a niche and produce a high quality product.  Hone your skills and don't be afraid to stretch yourself when it comes to taking on new projects.

[ChiefCodeX]

Jerry I've been wanting to join balcones for a while but the sign up sheet makes it sound like you have to be 18 ( 2 more weeks till then). Also I won't be able to go to any meetings for a while as I have wrestlin tournaments every Saturday. Steve Sells actually you'd be quite surprised how many knives get sold at gun shows. For every 10 gun booths there's a knife booth. They sell knives from anywhere between 50 to well over 300 dollars. Not to mention most of it is manafactured plastic knives. I personally go an skip all the gun booths and head straight for the knives.

[Steve Sells]

Lots of cheap knife booths, (lots of competition) as you said 50 to 300 each at the table.  Do you actually know how many $300 blades ever sell there? I have a few thousand dollar blades on my table they dont sell too often, but they get attention of people.    How much for the table rentals there? Your making weapons, so there is an insurance policy to pay for too.  You said you wish to make a business of this, in order for that to happen you need to turn a profit and making blades by hand for the cheap $50 to $300 range market, It can be done, but making a living that way will not be easy.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

IIRC Fiery Furnace is around your age, and is doing a decent business smithing. You may want to study some of his posts.

Check out Dave Ramsey book Entreleadership, your local library may have it. He also has good info on his website, and national radio program.

GOOD LUCK!

[ChiefCodeX]

Lots of knives get sold at these gun shows. For every 10 booths there's at least 1 knife booth. Knives sell very well around here, almost everyone is willing to buy one. Even if I don't sell knives at the gun show, I know gun forums and other places that will buy up knives like crazy. Even if there only 300 dollar knives. BigGunDocter I've seen a little of Dave Ramsey and his financial peace university, it's pretty good financial advice/plan. I'll have to look up Fiery Furnace and ask him some questions

Steve I don't know how much you've been around guns and gun shows, but I know at least around here guns and knives go hand in hand. Where's there's a gun owner there's a knive owner. In fact there are way more knive owners in texas then there are gun owners.

[Steve Sells]

dont let me stop you, have fun, I have made a few blades and sat a few shows, and was trying to help.

[ChiefCodeX]

I wasn't trying to be rude and sorry if I was. I respect you and other more experienced blacksmiths opinions. Your opinions are why I use this website. Advice from someone more experienced then you is worth more than gold.

I certainly don't doubt that you are a way better blacksmith then I am.

[Ric Furrer]

How did knives come up in this thread? The young man asked about going smithing as a job and opening a shop.

Knives are a HORRIBLE way of going broke. It is a niche market at best.

I can see blacksmithing as a means to make gardening kit, simple jewelry, small architectural pieces (that do not need installing like tables,lamps,kitchen goods etc)....railings and balconies if you have the insurance lied up and all manner of other thneeds.

 

but I suggest NOT getting into knives as a career.

 

I suggest making some simple shapes at a blacksmith gathering for a few months. If you can not hang with progress over a few months of weekends then you will not hang with the issues of making items for sale. Learn the simple shapes..taper,upset,chisel cut, scroll, twist forge weld etc and also bandsaws,drill presses,electric welders and grinders. 

 

NO KNIVES.

 

edit:

I do not think you need to run a business at this point...unless you are making a business plan and will approach a bank for a large loan to float you for the first year after you rent a space and tool up. A year where you will not know how to make anything and therefor can not sell anything.

Yes learn basic business practices, but you are not at the stage where you can use any of them....yet. Know them yes and apply as required, but you need to get dirty and do some stuff first. Spending time with working smiths at hammer-ins is a good way to do this.

 

 

Ric

[Rich Hale]

Chief if it will help at all let me chime in here: I did a lot of guns shows when i first started making and selling knves,,,and the selling part came alot of years after i began making them...The desier part was there to sell, the buyers were not. I had been to a lot of gun shows and saw as you have that there were buyers there for knves and guns. So i  would rent a table and site for two days and watch my work being scrutenized and handled. once every two or three weekends I would sell A knife. Good thing I had a day job. and they were not along way and a lot of gas to get to. Slowly I got buyers..some bought a second and third knfe...some got buddys to buy. so i moved into the green side of the ledger...I started dropping gun shows and moved up to shows that only had knife related sales. Agin there were buyeres there and they bought,,but not from me...Took about two years beforfe I could leave a show with more money than I took. Then I found out that each time I went to a show I had nto been to in the past it was the same thing...folks look,,,no or few sales...and after a couple of years the sales come along...Noow yearsl ater i fullyunderstand that each show i attend I may return with every knifee I spent so much time making. I no longer have a day job. And the sales do nto fedd me. so I enjoy the shows...when I have a great show it is all worth it. Join not only the forging group but find a knife club and go to meetings and just listen and watch..it is another way of an education.

[Rich Hale]

Ric I posted just after you did and i had to look back to see just how this did get on knives...Chief said in the #5 post that he would start out selling knives at gun shows.....I know that would allow him to see just wot the market is like. and would be educational. maybe not productive as if he stayed in shop when he gets going and learn basics
I wish that when I began all of this i would have had half the advice that has been posted in this thread alone...let aloneall that is on this site.

[Ted T]

ChiefCodeX, - - - I; by no means do I say what I am about to say as derogatory or unkind in any way.

 

You are doing the right thing by asking questions,

BUT; it is also important for you to listen and think about what has been said.

 Why?  Because these craftsman have been willing to take the time and effort to provide you with their opinion about what you have asked.

 

I would re-consider all that has already been said; I think there are some excellent guidelines that are overflowing with experience and wisdom of people wanting to assist you.

 

If you only knew the expert background qualifications of some of the responders, you would most likely accept and value their suggestions in a more positive and thoughtful way.

 

It is also important to be realistic about what anyone may say or claim;

and, that it is indeed a fact.

 

Theory and actual experience are most often quite different once you are put to the test.

Skill, experience, and knowledge do not come about by accident.  

 

So I suggest that you be good to yourself and take some time, effort, money, and sacrifice, as we all have to do, and then do whatever it takes to obtain the education and experience to do what you want to do.

 

Some time it just takes a longer time to save money or find what you need to help you move ahead.  But we all have had to move slowly at times and then very fast at other times, that is just life.

 

I believe it is only natural for a young person to reach out for suggestions.

And then at the same time want to start on the top rung of the ladder as opposed to starting at the bottom of the latter so they could lay out a proper support system.

 

I have been smithing for just over 60 years.  During that time period I have been employed as a government blacksmith and have worked for many welding/blacksmith shops. I have also had three different shops of my own over the years.

 

I worked persistently and “sacrifice” was the underlying operative word and price I paid when I was younger.

Such as; (no insurance for my family) ~ (no dependable paycheck at the end of the month) ~ (Long Hours) ~ (deadlines to meet that sometime were complicated by equipment breakdowns and bad weather), and on, and on!   

It is called business!

 

You sound to me like you have a lot of energy to invest into something. 

I suggest that you find someone (like a skilled Blacksmith) to help you direct that energy in the right path for the accomplishment you desire.

 

I wish you the best as you position yourself for success as a blacksmith. 

[ChiefCodeX]

Any advice on what shapes to start practicing with first.

[DSW]

I'd say start with the basics. Can you draw out and taper? Can you fuller and shoulder? Can you forge weld? How about upsetting or punching and drifting? Maybe we even need to go farther back in basics... Can you do basic fab work and assembly? I am often amazed at how little the kids at the tech school actually know about what I consider basic skills, like being able to square something up or even cut and measure items to the same length.

[Marksnagel]

Hey Chief,
 
 Lots of good sound advice here. I blacksmith as a hobby. I have sold items at fairs before and have learned one thing. As a hobby, I make no money. If I had to feed my family they would starve. 
 
 Shapes to start with:
 
Square to round.
Round to square.
Thick to thin.
Thin to thick.
Straight to bent. 
Bent to straight.
Taper, taper, taper.
 
Leaves, nails, "S" hooks, "J" hooks.
Punch holes, drift those holes larger.
 
This should keep you busy for a while. 
 
Don't lose heart. You can become a professional blacksmith if you have the willingness to listen, watch, learn and do. By coming here and asking for help is a good sign.
Mark <><

[Ric Furrer]

Look and do some of the work in the COSIRA books (online for free) and if you wish the modern version of these is the three volume (hopefully more in the future) below

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aag/main/ref=olp_merch_name_3?ie=UTF8&asin=0981548008&isAmazonFulfilled=0&seller=A3JLBN78WBH3P3

 

However...books only get you so far. Best to meet up with a smith at a local hammer-in and go from there. Most have an area set up for folk to use and many smiths will show you something to work on. You must be able to teach yourself at some point, but I find it better to learn from another in he beginning when all is new and foreign. As you build skills you can disappear into your work area, but for now you need outside instruction.

 

Ric