upset with upsetting end of bars

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Trying to make some crucifixion spikes with beryllium copper, and titanium. The shank is OK, but having major problems with the heads. The BeCu has to be cold worked due to being hot short , even annealed it is tough. Dull red, then water quenched is max, any hotter and the end falls off. The Ti works nice at a yellow heat. The problem is that even clamped down in my 6" post vise to the point of crushing the shanks they still slip down with hammer blows without upsetting. I am using .375" stock now.

I would like to forge these if possible, but I can machine the BeCu ones if needed. I don't have bigger Ti available, but the BeCu is the preferred alloy due to the fact that after I have them dipped in our chem deburring solution they will look just like gold. The only other option I can think of is to start with head size stock diameter then reduce the shank a lot more than I am now. Now is when a power hammer, or someone with a sledge would be nice as that much cold pounding won't be fun. May forge just the shank then silver solder on a machined head, decisions, decisions.

[VaughnT]

In the past, I've made a quick strap thingy to act as a positive stop.  All it is is a "U" of mild steel with the ends folded over to lay on top of the vise jaws.  1"x.25" works fine.  The depth of the U equals how far down you want the stock to go, the trough of the U stopping further travel under the hammer blows.

 

The folded-over ends allow the U to hang on the jaws when the vise isn't screwed down tight.  Just place the stock in the U, in contact with the bottom, torque it all down, and start hammering.

[ThomasPowers]

why are you using a vise and not a nail header?    My pastor wanted to make large nails so I had to make a nail header sized for RR spikes!  I found a piece of grader blade that had the right sized sq hole with back relief and cut a handle into a section.

[bigfootnampa]

Two good suggestions so far!  I tend to think that Thomas's will work better with the size of stock you are dealing with.  I have found it pretty difficult to get very much upset in a vise with small diameter stock like that.  

[ThomasPowers]

One thing I have started to do with my students is to use a fuller, swing arm or guillotine, to make the transition from the taper section to the head.  This helps them make the taper without messing up the head zone as I tell them that the head zone *ALWAYS* stays off the anvil and the dent from the fuller makes a visible stop line.  So order of work:  dent the stock with the fuller, taper everything below the dent, notch above the head zone, head.

 

I know you don't need this but for the other readers that might: Be dust is HIGHLY TOXIC.  Take *absurd* *precautions* when sanding or finishing BE containing alloys!

[Judson Yaggy]

I've never upset BeCopper, but if it were steel I'd upset it with a 1 or 1.5 pound hammer in each hand.  Light blows being delivered at twice the usual speed tends to work the end of a bar rather than drive it down thru the vise.  I'm not joking, it's amazing how fast you can upset using two hammers.

 

 A vise insert in the shape of your stock will also help prevent slippage.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Thanks for the replies.

Don't currently have a header, on the to make list. My concern with just a header is that the top would just shear itself through the opening. That is essentially what is happening with the vise. I will need a pretty good shoulder to start with, so starting with a larger diameter, and fullering it down may be the trick to solve that problem.

I was thinking of something like Vaughn mentioned, but I like his idea a little better than mine.

Crap, lunch break is over, gotta get back to work.

[ThomasPowers]

If it's shearing through the header you need to use a lighter hammer, if you are heading cold you may need to anneal as required.

[Mike Romo]

Just reiterating the toxicity of Beryllium dust.  At Sandia National Labs, we have an entire department of medical dedicated to monitoring folks who work with Beryllium.  it starts when they start and it goes on even after retirement.  They are monitored throughout their lives to assure no disease crops up.  

 

As Elmer Fudd once said, "Be vewwy vewwy careful."

[bigfootnampa]

I can see problems with a standard nail header when your stock is too small to forge a good shoulder.  In such case how about using a rivet type header that clamps in the vise?  It might also be possible to turn a tight coil and forge weld the head in a header of either the nail or rivet type.

[ThomasPowers]

But .375" is not too small for a standard header, in the class I teach each student is required to forge two nails in .25 stock and I have two headers for that size I made myself.  (The "intro to smithing" course that I teach as an adjunct to the Advanced Fine Arts Metal, armouring class; did a session Sunday, they first forge a S hook, then two nails, then a chile pepper.  Then it's lunch time.)

[Bob S]

But .375" is not too small for a standard header, in the class I teach each student is required to forge two nails in .25 stock and I have two headers for that size I made myself.  (The "intro to smithing" course that I teach as an adjunct to the Advanced Fine Arts Metal, armouring class; did a session Sunday, they first forge a S hook, then two nails, then a chile pepper.  Then it's lunch time.)

 got pictures?

[ThomasPowers]

Of the class? of the tooling? of my 6 grandkids? 

 

They look like a typical nail header, made from coil spring, domed from the back with a round hole drifted sq.  Nothing fancy, nothing special, Not very heavy as they are for 1/4" sq stock. they've done several hundred nails so far---though one is a replacement as the original broke after a student used it from the wrong side and managed to rivet their nail in place and broke the header trying to extract it. Not a surprise a student broke the horn off the original anvil they had---a very abused small vulcan.  No one was hurt so it caused merely a heavy sigh and allowing their classmates to rag them for the rest of the semester about not following instructions.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

OK, got some more time now.

I started with bar ends from work that are 3/8" x 7" long. Annealed one end by bringing it up to a dull red, and quenching in water. Drew the end down to a point after several annealings, leaving the shank a square section till it met the original diameter. The length at this point was around the 4" I was shooting for. I cut the end off , and allowed about 1/2" of full diameter to form the pyramid style head. This is when the trouble started. Even annealed as I had done, it was still tough. I tried forging a hot section on one bar, and it just crumbled under the hammer blow. Now I see what the manufacturer meant by hot short, and to only forge cold. I also experimented with brighter red heat, but it was real sketchy if it would hold together, or just fall off at that temp.

I want to conquer this problem, but my time is running out for this particular project, soooo for these I think I may just silver solder on some heads.

As to the Beryllium, I do know the dangers as we literally run through tons of this material, and went beyond the MSDS, and contacted the manufacturer directly. There won't be any sanding, or polishing as the acid dip we use for deburring will leave them looking like polished gold. I think I did a pretty good job on the shaping as the sides are very flat, and smooth with sharp edges. If anything, there may be some basic filing to round some edges on the head, and refine shape if need be.

Mike Romo, I had some dealings with a gentleman at Sandia when I worked for a machine gun dealer. I believe his last name was Johnson,and he dealt with the protective forces, but it has been several years since I last talked with him. Real nice guy.

[HWooldridge]

I would probably silver solder the heads but if you want one more option, you could forge a tenon on the shank then drill and/or drift a hole in the head. Head is driven onto the tenon and staked/riveted tight. Could be considered a traditional, mechanical joinery method.

[bigfootnampa]

Thomas I was considering that he might not have enough difference between the desired spike diameter and the original stock dimension to make a workable shoulder.  It would certainly be doable if you could get by with a spike at least 1/8" smaller in dimensions than the original stock, but what if you only have a few thousandths of differential?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Bigfootnampa, that is what I am thinking, just not enough shoulder to get things started.

[Mike Romo]

We have lots of nice folks here. Great place to work.

You did say magic words--machine gun. I, too, am an avowed shooter.

[nicole]

Would gold plating an easier to work metal be an option?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Nicole, this was for my annual Halloween costume - I go as a Bling Jesus. I walk in the Las Vegas Halloween Parade every year, and figure even The Big JC needs a vacation. This has been an ever evolving costume over the last few years (6?) now. Ever since I started to grow my hair out people have told me that I look like Jesus, soooo I figured-why not?

I ended up milling some heads from a 7/8" dia bar end I had, then silver soldered them onto the shank. I left a 1/8" dia stub on the head from parting them off in the lathe, and I had forged the shanks to 5/16" square at the top, so I chucked them up in a square collet and drilled a 1/8" hole for the stub to press into. Soldered them up, then had the boss dip them in the chem for a few seconds to make'm shine big time.

I plan on trying some of the suggestions from here when I get a chance to get back to the forge.

[ianinsa]

Working with beryllium when you don't need to?????? Are you also mercury dipping and rinsing in arsenic?

 

There is an old saying that says '' There is no merit in scratching a lion's butt with a match''.

 

Ian

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

No mercury, or arsenic. The chem is an acid bath we use for deburring, and bringing slightly oversize parts into tolerance. I don't have an issue working with BeCu alloys, like I mentioned before we run literally tons of the stuff through the shop a year, and we have the PPE available when needed. It is an amazing material to work with, and I have some more projects that I would like to do in the future with it.