Fe-Wood Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 I have a bunch of single refined wrought iron and am thinking about making a couple kitchen knives. I'm not sure what steel will be good to use for the "high carbon" part of the billet. I have forged a few billets out of steel that someone else put together and don't remember what they used. I'm looking for ideas on what would be a good steel to use with the wrought iron and why. I'm would also like input on heat treating the finished blades. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Just remember, wrought iron has little to no carbon content so what ever high carbon steel you choose to use that carbon will want to migrate into the wrought. I would use 1095 minimum. I'm curious, maybe those who have done it before can answer, If using a high carbon chromium steel like 52100 would mitigate the migration since the chromium is a stronge bonding agent with iron and carbon and the chromium won't migrate. Hmm. Just a random thought. Just remember whatever you decide to use work it fast. The longer it stays at forging temps the greater carbon loss you'll have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Your other option is to save the wrought iron for making etched guards and end-caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 the chrome and its carbides that have formed should stay, but the free carbon will migrats. I posted a report from electron microscope a few years ago, its happens much faster than any of us used to think too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 the chrome and its carbides that have formed should stay, but the free carbon will migrate. I posted a report from electron microscope a few years ago, its happens much faster than any of us used to think too. Thanks steve, that's kind of what I would have predicted. That's the beautiful thing about steel, it is predicable. I'll have to see if I can find that post. As far as your hardening/temper it is almost impossible to predict as forging time and what you start with will greatly affect the end product. It could harden in oil if you have worked it reall fast (read in BIG power hammer) or it might not even harden in water (hand forged/folded many times). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielC Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 the chrome and its carbides that have formed should stay, but the free carbon will migrate. I posted a report from electron microscope a few years ago, its happens much faster than any of us used to think too. Link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 start here, > I am looking for the lost link to the microcrope photo of only one welding pass, No folds just stacked and welded then cut and scanned, very supprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Hmmm. Great input jm. I was thinking of using the same thickness for the layers of the billet. Would thicker layers of high carbon steel work to my advantage? Also, I'll be using a coal forge. In terms of speed, how many heats are we talking about for forming the billet and forming the blade? Steve- thanks for the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Hmmm. Great input jm. I was thinking of using the same thickness for the layers of the billet. Would thicker layers of high carbon steel work to my advantage? Also, I'll be using a coal forge. In terms of speed, how many heats are we talking about for forming the billet and forming the blade? Steve- thanks for the link It all comes down to layer count. According to Wayne Goddard carbon atoms migrate the width of a hair an hour. Not much but if your layers are less than that total migration can take place in less than 30 mins. My personal rule of thumb for doing high/low Damascus is to start with thin layers and fold no more than 2 times. Sometimes you can slip a peice of high carbon in the center on the final fold that will form the edge. That will give you a higher carbon content for the cutting edge. Personally I would suggest using an all high carbon billet. I use L-6/1095 as it has a bold pattern and carbon migration isn't a problem since it's all high carbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Sometimes you can slip a peice of high carbon in the center on the final fold that will form the edge. That will give you a higher carbon content for the cutting edge. Personally I would suggest using an all high carbon billet. I use L-6/1095 as it has a bold pattern and carbon migration isn't a problem since it's all high carbon. I Like the idea of using a piece of high carbon for the cutting edge. Thanks for the input on materials and carbon migration. This will be my first blade so keeping it simple will be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Your first blade or your first pattern welded blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 here is the other . seems I need to re locate the University links, they have made changes, such is the problem of using off site links.. I sill update as I can. '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Steve, that link doesn't take me to the article, just the ASM Home page. I did a carbon migration search and came up empty. Thomas, in answer to your question, yes to both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Who is a good supplier for small amounts of L-6 and 1095? Any idea of the billet size (how many pieces, thickness , width, length) I would need in order to make a classic chefs knife with about an 8" blade with the full tang between the scales? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don A Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 You might want to try a san-mai type construction... basically just a 3 layer weld. This one is a big old file between 2 layers of wrought wagon wheel rim. The pattern you see is the teeth of the file coming through the grind. If I was using virgin steel for the edge layer, I'd probably go for 1084 Aldo Bruno (New Jersey Steel Baron) can hook you up on the steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Yes you should get about 5 times more than you need as you will probably need to do it several times to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Yes you should get about 5 times more than you need as you will probably need to do it several times to get it right. What? I'm not sure what you are talking about Thomas... Nice blade Don. Do you have a link for the steel baron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Steve, that link doesn't take me to the article, just the ASM Home page. I did a carbon migration search and came up empty. I know, that is why I said I need to re locate the University links, they have made changes that was what I referred to, for some odd reason they made a change to their website in the past 4 years, without telling us, How rude of them... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Ah! I get it now :) How non-user friendly.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 If you have to ask such questions it usually means you don't have a lot of experience doing things that way and getting a good weld without overheating the highC or underheating the WI for a piece as large as to make a good chef's knife will probably take a trial or two to get down cold (so to speak) so bet on needing several times more to make sure you end up with enough---horrible to get things just right only to find out you have to start over again as you ran out of alloy XYZ and it take weeks to get more due to the zombie apocalypse, or a hurricane, or an earthquake, etc... My favorite for juicing up billets is old black diamond files when they were 1.2%c I used to pick them up at the fleamarket whenever they turned up cheap---puzzled a lot of dealers that I would buy all they had under my price point but wouldn't buy *any* above it. They thought that if I wanted them so much I'd pay more---as I had 20 pounds of them already at home I wasn't hurting to get more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 So Thomas, thanks for telling me how much I don't know and for pointing out the obvious. This is exactly why I'm asking the questions and hoping for real answers. Like "expect to loose about 30% of the steel to scale and finish"... I'm using 30% as an example here. With all the outstanding knife makers on this forum I would think this a fairly straight forward question. I'm happy you have a pile of juicy files piled away Thomas you should be proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 relax Fewood, things are so easy to misunderstand from a forum with cold text, I have offended so many people where I did not have that intent, This happens due to assumptions from the reader gettting none of my inflections or missing my scarcasum, or even like Thomas just said: stating obvious to be clear for the many readers that dont read the entire threadd, only a few posts, then get upset from out of context things said. Also I think you should plan closer to 50% losses just starting out pattern welding as a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 A lot depends on which pattern you make and if you plan to grind or forge to shape. For a first try I would strongly remember the old sheffield proverb "If a good blade you would win, you should forge thick and grind thin" As for exactly how much---take the knife you are trying to replicate and get several times as much steel as it weighs now and even then don't be surprised if your chef's knife ends up a boning knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 Thank you both. That was an answer I can work with. 50% or more for loss is a number I can start with. I just get tired of people putting up posts to pretty specific questions without including real pertinent information. I've been smithing long enough to know almost any question can be answered with; "it depends on..."No offense taken or intended... I will be forge welding the leaves of the billet together then doing a knick/fold forge weld 2 maybe 3 times. As this blade is a learning piece, I'm going to forge to finish or close anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I find that actually Folding is a pain,, clean cut and re stacking 5 layers or so at a time goes fast) works better than dealing with the stretching at the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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