windancer

3000 degree soft firebrick SOURCE wanted

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Anyone know of a reasonably priced place to buy 3000 degree soft firebrick? I am looking for 10 of them.

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

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Have you checked with a local masonry or place that supplies bricks for fireplaces?  The local place I went to is called MPI, http://www.mpi-austin.com/index.php

 

don't know if they have more locations, but google should find something local 'masonry fireplace supplies'

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Thanks, Geoff. Had forgotten them after the huge shipping charge when I bought from them last time :)

Dan, fireplace brick won't hold up even to low temp forges.

Dave

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Again, if you had a thought about going to the NWKC show, I would be happy to pick up what you need (some kind of will call?) and bring it with me.

 

Geoff

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Learn something new everyday, I didn't know there were different types of firebrick.  I just use some around my firepot to save fuel and increase the depth.

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i get all my refractory needs at a local boiler repair shop. they easier to get along with than the refractory dealers and usually cheaper. plus any broken or partial bags of refractory can usually be had very cheap or free.

 

mark

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Your going to pay 3 times as much for 3,000ifb then 2,800ifb. The high alumina content in the 3,000ifb will definitely make it less pervious to attacks from fluxes but won't outlast 2,800 brick three times. Any ifb will be attacked from flux during forge welding.

When you get up to these high temp alumina refractories it's always cheaper to buy castable. I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish? If this is for walls and crown I would recommend casting from mizzou a cheap high alumina noninsulating castable. You don't need much for structural integrity. Mizzou will stand up to high temps almost impervious to any flux and is extremly abrasive resistant. Then you would back it up with a fiber insulation. For the floor I would use the same mizzou but cast it a little thicker still fiber underneath. There are comparable products from all the big refractory dealers just ask everyone knows mizzou.

I'm going to guess you already looked up refractories in the yellow pages?

Pottery stores will charge you a premium in my experience.

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I decided to make some Damascus, fully realizing it would eat up the guts of my smaller forge.

I didn't realize that the Damascus temp would crack both the hard and soft 2600 degree brick.

I built the last three or four forges and have had others since I started making knives years ago.

 

Making two large diameter cable Damascus, two smaller diameter cable Damascus and one billet from a farrier rasp and 01. I sold my Damascus forge [with a Kitty Litter tub underneath] planning not to make any more Damascus. No big deal with the vertical forge- lift off the top, scrape and dump all the gook into a doubled trash bag and pour in a large bag of Kitty Litter and go back to work. The rests on that forge were heavy steel that lasted several years, then just weld on new steel.

 

Will probably not make any more Damascus that isn't in a can. Just getting ready to order the stuff I need to get this forge back into service. Anything that goes in there now comes back out coated with the gook on the bottom that is terrible to try to get back off.

 

Sky, will the cast-able Mizzou hold up to 3000 degrees? It goes on over the Kaowool? Do you still use ITC100? I am a little resistant to making the forge any smaller inside :)

 

The bricks are for the ends [doors] and rests for the steel being worked OUTSIDE the forge. All 10 broke and crumbled from the welding heat. I have the Kaowool and ITC100 and several more of the 2600 degree brick. But I want bricks that will hold up to the higher heat. Since I am only buying 10 the cost isn't much of a factor for me with this project.

 

Thanks for all the ideas!

Dave

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I was thinking you would cast slabs for the liner in the forge. You would still want to back up the mizzou with fiber.

For door bricks mizzou would be fine by itself. Durable and it's rated for 3,000f. Nice to use castable for custom shaped doors. Also works well poured in a steel frame.

Here's a quick google link:
http://www.hightemptools.com/castablerefractory.html

Another option to consider is kastolite 3,000f. (i suspect for door bricks this will beat any ifb on the market) I have used kastolite 2800plus with great results. Certainly won't hold up to flux but for walls, ceiling and doors I think it's the best you can buy.

Is itc a coloidal silica or coloidal alumina? I'm not familiar with itc.

One more note on backup insulation. It is worth the time and money. The mizzou works like a thermal flywheel and that makes it easy maintaining temps even with the doors wide open. Unfortunately it doesn't insulate so to keep that heat in fiber is the easy answer this will keep the heat in and the fiber is under the castable. This has an added benefit of keeping your forge shell from disintegrating.

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Windancer, are you absolutely set on bricks? I use a refractory mortar over plain ol inswool (not sure of the rating) but the mortar is rated to 3200º f. I have no problem welding in it but you really don't need 3000º to weld unless you're welding ball bearings together ;) Welding temps for most carbon steels start around 2200º and up so, 2800º f rated materials should suffice IMHO. Also, for flux corrosion prevention, a sacraficial board or other removable material or your hi temp flux proof bricks just for the floor perhaps....

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ITC 100 is zirconium flour and kaolin clay, high alumina. the more silica in the mix the more susceptible it is to caustic action from fluxes. Zirconium flour can be had for pretty darned reasonable from Zircopax, sorry gonna have to search that term, I don't remember the company selling it. Zircopax is zirconium silicate but the silicate % is quite low and seems to have no effect where flux is concerned.

 

Another place to look is "kiln wash" but you have to keep in mind the lower the silica the more flux resistant it is.

 

You can buy brick molds at the local concrete plant, heck all kinds of cool concrete molds from bricks, pavers, flags, etc. Anyway, the plastic brick molds are standard size and easy release so all you need to do is ram  or pour in the mix, let it dry and fire. With a little shopping around and talking to the guys at the local furnace repair company you can find yourself making reasonably priced 4,000f + bricks and forge liners. My really OLD pipe forge has a rammed AP Green super air set, high phosphate refractory rated to be concrete hard at 4,500f and proof against a 4,000f ammonia atmosphere. AP Green is long gone and I haven't looked for a replacement of that quality, shipping would kill me.

 

Yeah, another long winded ramble but I've made a couple of the things.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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ITC 100 is zirconium flour and kaolin clay, high alumina. the more silica in the mix the more susceptible it is to caustic action from fluxes. Zirconium flour can be had for pretty darned reasonable from Zircopax, sorry gonna have to search that term, I don't remember the company selling it. Zircopax is zirconium silicate but the silicate % is quite low and seems to have no effect where flux is concerned.

 

Another place to look is "kiln wash" but you have to keep in mind the lower the silica the more flux resistant it is.

 

You can buy brick molds at the local concrete plant, heck all kinds of cool concrete molds from bricks, pavers, flags, etc. Anyway, the plastic brick molds are standard size and easy release so all you need to do is ram  or pour in the mix, let it dry and fire. With a little shopping around and talking to the guys at the local furnace repair company you can find yourself making reasonably priced 4,000f + bricks and forge liners. My really OLD pipe forge has a rammed AP Green super air set, high phosphate refractory rated to be concrete hard at 4,500f and proof against a 4,000f ammonia atmosphere. AP Green is long gone and I haven't looked for a replacement of that quality, shipping would kill me.

 

Yeah, another long winded ramble but I've made a couple of the things.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

AP Green gone?? Frosty, do you mean the specific product you mentioned or the company itself? I was able to google find locations in Missouri and Ohio. The refractory mortar I used was A P Green's Greenpatch 421 which is still available albeit $30 more per 50# pail than when I got mine 4 or 5 years ago, and I found I was wrong above; Its not 3200º f but rather 3600º f ;) It is a high alumina product. Not sure what that means for flux corrosion but I have welded in the forced air forge with no severe damage; at least no "China Syndrome" :D

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A nice fella at high temp products ordered them in for me. Kinda pricey but I am happy to find them. After they arrive I will post his full info.

 

I have a partial bag of Castable- does it need to be in a frame or anything to use as doors?

Thanks,

Dave

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AP Green gone?? Frosty, do you mean the specific product you mentioned or the company itself? I was able to google find locations in Missouri and Ohio. The refractory mortar I used was A P Green's Greenpatch 421 which is still available albeit $30 more per 50# pail than when I got mine 4 or 5 years ago, and I found I was wrong above; Its not 3200º f but rather 3600º f ;) It is a high alumina product. Not sure what that means for flux corrosion but I have welded in the forced air forge with no severe damage; at least no "China Syndrome" :D

Last I looked some of the products were still available but I couldn't find the company. I haven't looked since before the accident and may have just screwed up the search. The product I was looking for was "Pyramid super, air set" and now I think about it, it may be Pyramid that's out of business. Dang I miss my brain. <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

A nice fella at high temp products ordered them in for me. Kinda pricey but I am happy to find them. After they arrive I will post his full info.

 

I have a partial bag of Castable- does it need to be in a frame or anything to use as doors?

Thanks,

Dave

I think that depends on the doors Dave. If they're hinged I'd say yes definitely put a frame around them but if you're going to stack them like bricks to block the openings. No reason for frames.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I picked up a box of 2600 degree IFB from HWR in Birmingham Al. It looks like they own the AP Green name. 

ANH Refractories is one of the world’s largest and most respected suppliers of refractory materials. With lineage that dates back over 100 years, ANH Refractories is the leading provider of refractory solutions to the global industrial market. ANH Refractories operates more than 17 production facilities spread over 3 continents and manufactures materials under the world recognized brands of A.P. Green, North American Refractories Company, and Harbison-Walker Refractories Company.

 

The local guy that sold me the bricks and his boss both sat and chewed the fat about how stupid it is for great big companies to think they are too good to sell small orders, and college football since we are in Alabama after all. 

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This is an old post but I've had tremendous success in casting my own refractory. Heat over 2200 deg isn't nessasary unless you intend to destroy perfectly good steel and forge refractory materials. For your desired temp of 3000 puts you into the graphite bricks which really expensive. I make a fantastic blend of 60% vermiculite 10% sand 15 ball clay and 15% alumina. After a fire cure I then glaze the surface with a talcum based ceramic glaze to seal the refractory. When using Flux I always place scrap ceramic tiles to to protect the floor of my forge. Altogether this has been my best home brewed blend and give my forge a cleanable hard surface. The next refractory job I'm planning on trying out a surface skim coat of high tamp returns porcelain that's high in alumina talcum and graphite for a more durable surface. All of my refractory has been bonded with homemade water glass and ball clay mixture. And I couldn't be happier with the results. As this applies to gas forges.

 At times I've been so aggravated with residual damage from Flux that I threatened to Flux only on my old coal forge to advertise the mess over gas  propelled heat source. Where all of these headaches can be avoided. Also I use the old timers recipes for my Flux that contain alot of charcoal powder. 

Eventually I would like to try course soapstone as a bottom for better preformance.

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Welcome aboard Douglas, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the Iforge crew live within visiting distance.

Vermiculite has a melting temp of 1350 C 2460 F +/- , sand if silica around 2,000 and ball clay? You do realize talcum powder and soapstone are the same chemically as asbestos with the same health risks. YES?

A person can make a much more effective and less dangerous to your lungs refractory from fire clay and saw dust. A kiln wash of straight bentonite clay and flux won't effect it.

I don't know where you live so I can't say about the economics but here I can buy a 55lb. sack of highly effective water set, high alumina, bubble refractory for under $2.00 / lb. So: I don't have to mess with trying to make my own refractory anymore, it's concrete hard at an operating temperature higher than I need, is immune to welding fluxes, insulates, is completely non toxic and is not a breathing hazard. The Material Safety Data sheet says there is no reportable quantity and is at worst a possible eye irritant, flush with water and possible skin irritant if you're sensitive to calcium, wash with soap and water. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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