Soderfor FORGED steel anvil or not?

[Guest Blacksmith Tool Shed]

I've seen post about the Swedish made Soderfor anvil as to whether or not it was cast or forged during manufacturing.

Richard Postman thought that it might be cast steel in his book "Anvils in America". Although he does point out that advertising for Soderfor anvils promoted a forged made anvil.

Well here 2 cents worth.

During high school several friends built a Chrysler 440 engine. During the parts identification to find better manufactured parts was the preference for a forged steel crankshaft over nodular iron.

The way to tell a forged crank was the parting line from the mold. Cast cranks had a thin, crisp and distinct parting line about 3/16" wide. Forged cranks had a wide, flat and rough parting line.

The 204 lb. Soderfor I have has a parting line like the forged Crank.

Therefore, I'm inclined to think that the companies advertising was correct.

Any other thoughts on identifying Forged anvils?

[Black Frog]

Cast anvil usually have raised markings/logos on them from the casting process.  Like Fisher's Eagle, the Columbian markings, or Vulcan's logo.

Forged anvils have the stampings going into the metal of the anvil.

 

Soderfors sometimes have both the raised logo from casting, and also weight stamping on the side and/or the crown logo.

[Frosty]

It's my understanding Soderfors anvils are cast, I've only seen some "historical" material to this effect. The only material I've seen saying they're closed die forged after casting is purely anecdotal and worse it's on a craigs list or was it Ebay as part of the seller's description.

 

I have a 125lb. Sorceress #5 by Soderfors and it is cast with the flashing and gates ground off. I suppose It could've been finished in a closed die but I don't se how it'd be economical. Everything but the weight stands proud so it'd take a pretty special set of dies and there'd be little question as to the finished weight in that case. That last is MY reasoning and is of course subject to reality.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Rockcrusher]

I have only owned one Soderfors anvil and it does not have a parting line at all and I don't believe it was ground off. I have a big West anvil also and it is obviously cast. Soderfors advertising claimed they were forging anvils for many years and I believe they did. Here is a picture of the back of my anvil...a 506#  Soderfors that I would say shows signs of being forged.   Ed.

 

[Rockcrusher]

I'm a little surprised at the apparent lack of strong feelings on this topic one way or the other. I am pretty sure that Soderfors was forging at least some of their anvils in the traditional manner. It seems equally likely that some were outright cast. As far as taking a fresh casting and forging it in closed dies, well,  from the evidence available I believe that likely was a manufacturing method Soderfors used as well. 

 

Soderfors made anvils for many years, during the evolution of metalurgy, so a certain level of experimentation would be expected. No doubt as Anvil makers around the world were discovering there were many suitable processes for producing quality anvils. Being priced competitively while maintaining quality would have been the challenge. They certainly had one advantage in that Swedish steel by all accounts was as good as there was. I would like to think that someday we will have more of the answers....possibly some of them coming from discussions like this one.  Ed.

[Black Frog]

Ed, what year is your anvil?

[Rockcrusher]

I'm not really sure just how old it is but possibly before the paragon line? All markings are stamped including the Soderfors shield with crown.  Ed.

 

[Frosty]

This is my 125lb. Soderfors Sorceress #5 's Right profile, (her pretty side <grin>) The left side is stamped, weight, year of manufacture, etc.

 

I took a closer look yesterday and I was wrong, there are no parting lines, no grind marks. My caster buddy says it was cast in a steel mold. I asked how he knew and he said it was obvious once you knew what to look for. I asked what to look for and he gave me the look. I'm thinking it'd take some years of casting to train the eye? He did say it was factory cast and no parting lines or grinding so odds were. . .

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

As forging after casting would probably be to refine grain size I don't see getting that much deformation in a closed die process from a substantially to shape cast preform.  Patrick, your thoughts?

[Rockcrusher]

I would agree with Thomas because it seems that getting enough metal movement to significantly refine grain structure would require a drop shaped differently enough from the dies it was forced to flow to fill them. That would be the easy part. Getting it to flow and fill perfectly without flashing between the dies leaving the parting line would be masterful. If your not getting flow and simply compressing the casting to refine grain size is it worth the effort?  I know...more questions than answers.  Ed.

[marcusb]

I recently looked at a 510 pound soderfors paragon anvil with the intent to purchase. All the indications on that anvil lead me to belive it was of forged construction. I would imagine they switched to casting as the technology improved and labor became more costly. I would also add that the forging on the anvil was impressive, I own a couple larger late forged anvils of american manufacture and they are no where near the level of fit and finnish that Swedish anvil was.

[Black Frog]

MarcusB, was that 510# in Michigan a few months ago?

If so, that one was cast.

I'm intimately familiar with that one now..... ;)

[Rockcrusher]

Black frog, does this 510# anvil show casting lines or have raised insignia? Do the handling holes show signs of use?  I suppose even a cast anvil could have handling holes pushed in and be beat on once removed from the mold to mask the flash line...but there is probably only one reason to do so. Could it be that Soderfors was making a forgery of a forged anvil? I kind of doubt that, so for now I'm sticking with the theory that they produced both cast and forged anvils over the years. Now where did I leave that darned time machine, wouldn't it be nice to go back about 120 years or so and check out the Soderfors factory works. :)  Ed.

[Black Frog]

Here ya go. 510# Soderfors made in 1924.
Interesting combination in that it carries the Columbian stamp too, no Paragon markings.
Soderfors made anvils for Columbian for a while during that time period, according to Postman.

 

Has the Dannemora stamp on there, indicating the mining/iron district in Sweden where the iron ore came from to make this anvil.
Dannemora steel was claimed to be of a higher quality than other steels of the time.
Some Soderfors of the same time period I’ve seen do not have the Dannemora stamp (that I can find) on them.  Interesting.

 

 

Here you can see the casting seam line toward the left.  Runs right up the middle of the anvil.

 

This anvil has a nice stand with formed arch holders fit to the base of the anvil. 

Four little tack welds at the ends of the arches secure the anvil to the base.

Base is thick and beefy with a top plate welded to the cast base.

I don’t have a scale large enough to measure the whole thing, but I’m guessing the base adds another 150 pounds(?) to the package.
Many hours were spent getting the old girl to look like she should.  Here you can see the cast logo on the opposite side:

 

[Rockcrusher]

Nice anvil Black Frog. You sure have a lot of information stamped in that one and a rivetted tag to boot. Interesting texture in that first pic, it looks like a chisel makers anvil until you see the stampings are on top of all those straight line marks. The only information to be found anywhere on my Soderfors are in the picture above. Good info about the Dannemora mine too. I had not heard that before. Ed.

[Black Frog]

I'm guessing the riveted tag may have been an asset identification tag put on there by the owner, or by the company who purchased it.

My company did similar things with when buying larger and more expensive equipment.

[101 H-B]

I was very surprised to see this thread. Every Söderfors anvil I've seen has evidence of being cast: parting line, pattern wider at the vertical parting line particularly noticeable at the front and back foot, homogeneous cast steel/no top steel plate, hot rasp finish, planed working edges. I have seen Dannemora, Falun, and Stockholm on different anvils marked Soderfors.

 

Rockcrusher's 506# doesn't show much of the hot rasp finish, nor wider at the center of the front and back foot, but the uniform sweep of the legs, the square ends of the feet, and overall symmetry including the horn appears cast from a pattern rather than forged to me. Ed, thanks for all those great pictures on PB.

[Rockcrusher]

I suppose my anvil could be cast. I suppose all Soderfors could be cast.  I've read that Soderfors may have been in business since 1200 AD. If true that is about 800 years of processing iron and steel. Surely this company practiced a high level of integrity and customer service to have this type of longevity.

 

The main problem I have accepting the "Soderfors cast all anvils" premise is apparently the only documents I've seen containing information on the Soderfors manufacturing methods employed in the early 1900's or before so far are a few advertisements. Either we accept that the information in these advertisements is accurate or we must conclude that their was a deliberate effort by Soderfors management to deceive potential customers. Seems a bit unethical doesn't it.  I guess I hope that evidence will somehow emerge to restore widespread faith in Soderfors credibility. Not trying to be argumentative at all...just stimulate further discussion. Ed.

 

[101 H-B]

It's interesting to speculate whether Söderfors made a forged anvil from multiple pieces before they made the cast ones we usually see. We see a lot of cast steel John Brooks anvils, but they originally made built up forged anvils like Mouse Hole and other Old English anvils. Brooks forged anvils are occasionally seen.

 

I don't know if we should take the USA ad literally about being forged, advertising was a bit looser in those days. "These Facts Will Not Down" is also not clear literally. The ad appears to be emphasizing that it is one piece vs. built up anvils where a part could break off if a weld was weak.  In any case, the ad placed by Potts probably isn't a reflection on Söderfors. The company in Sweden may not have had any input to what Potts put in their USA ad.

[Марис Кушкис]

Hello.
I have Soderfors anvil - 160 kg. Condition: from 3 to 5 by grading scale, treatment is required. Photo is in an attachment. Anvil is in Latvia. I want to sell it in the same condition as it is right now. I need an advice - for how much I can sell it on eBay? Quality of photos isn't the best. This anvil was bought from romans in 1990 and few years ago it was sold to me. Excuse me, if I wrote this in wrong topic.

[BangBang]

While not near as big. I dug this anvil up with a 963 in coal city yesterday! I have been looking for several years for a garage anvil to some light blacksmithing!  What a find

 One side is marked Soderfors  Sweden    and the other side Columbia sweden 80 lbs   1924  #1    It cleaned up pretty good!

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k573/zimraphail/IMG_1033_zpsyyxbbsq3.jpg

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k573/zimraphail/IMG_1031_zpsb1l1qu6v.jpg

[D.C.]

Beautiful...It's also marked with the Dannemora stamp. That generation of Soderfors were definitely cast steel. Amazing rebound. I have your anvils big brother.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

My 306# Sodefors was made in 1928, and everything is stamped, no raised lettering.

[D.C.]

I always understood they were cast, then stamped according to final destination/company. Mine is a Colombian, others are stamped paragon..etc. There is a distinct parting line/seam under the heel. I do suppose that could have been from a closed die forging.

I see the pics of one with raised markings, but I've personally never seen one. And I can easily imagine a change in marking  style if they replaced the molds.

In any case, my anvil, and all other examples I've seen from that era (1920s) show every sign if being one piece solid steel  construction, whether cast or forged in a closed die. 

[C-1ToolSteel]

Wow that's amazing! I've actually dug up a few anvils myself.  ...then I woke up.