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Wasted decisions on oil.

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Okay so I've seen on the waste oil places I've looked that you can use motor oil, fryer oil, even cooking oil. I found a link here that talked about it.

What I can't find are differences in oils. Does it matter really what I use? I saw a link to problems with motor oil, but it was broken. 

Can you mix oils? Which I wouldn't think are generally a good idea, but I don't really know a whole lot about it.

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Used petroleum based oils have the problem of contamination and can exhaust some seriously BAD fumes. frying oils be they peanut, coconut, canola, etc. etc. work fine and don't smell bad either, especially used donut shop fryer oil. Sure you can mix oils so long as they aren't too different.

 

If you want to determine the relative BTU ratings you might need to make up a tester. for instance an oil lamp burning a measured amount of oil to heat a measured amount of clear water. The degrees of temp rise in the water will let you figure the BTU rating of the oil. Don't ask me what kind of lamp, how to burn it, etc. I don't know that kid of thing I'm more a generalist.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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That helps, I'm not terribly worried about fumes, I'm working outside. Cautious of course, but I was more or less looking if fryer oils were alright enough.

I have plenty of friends in the food and beverage business that would happily dump their used oil on me. That being the biggest part in deciding on the waste oil burner, free fuel with little hassle or begging haha.

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ive run fryer oil in a homemade burner set up... it works pretty well,  a couple of issues....first it burned best when preheated... and second soot(until forge body came up to heat)...   would love to see pics of your project..

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For any kind of oil burner you need to either use a high pressure spray to vaporize it or pre-heat it significantly, till it's hot it's going to smoke. A neighbor of mine many a year ago used fuel oil to fire his kiln and to get it hot enough used a propane torch to pre-heat the cast iron frying pan he used as an oil vaporizer. As I recall some issues of "Mother Earth News" did some pretty good articles about making your own oil burners and not all for heaters.

 

You'll need to filter it or THINGS will block your metering valve.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Have a combination gas /oilburner start your forge with gas till hot and then switch to oil and you will not have any smoke problems , cheers HJP

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Hmm that's good to know, the plans I have drawn up are using a vaporizer, they seemed to work the best from what I've seen. The oil burns nicely, and I can store it at room temperature. I have an air compressor so I don't think that'll be a problem.

 

I thought about gas, but I also saw someone use just charcoal, and let the fan run that, once the fire started dying down, turned th eoil on and it went into like over drive. It was pretty glorious.

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Sorry but that is patently WRONG.
If the oil is introduced into a hot area it will vapourise and combust on it's own.
I have made numerous burners that neither Spray nor pre heat the oil. This is one of the latest:

'>


It does over 300Kw and is easily capeable of more. That's going to be enough grunt to heat any Home furnace I have seen on the net multiple times over.



Also if Motor oil is combusted properly, there is no excessive danger or fumes.  I burn the oil from my own Vehicles and friendws to get rid of it and as a heat source and the only thing you can smell  is that heated/ warm air smell. Exactly the same as when I burn veg oil.



Engine oil has enough extra heat to notice over Veg oil but if you have a burner with big enough dangly ones, you just turn the thing up a bit till you get the heat you want.



 

 

 

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I don't use a metering valve at all. They are pains in the Butt because any small particle will block them. Instead I have gone to a timed pump. The thing is pulsed by a small , cheap timer board that has variable on off times. This way I can controll the amount of oil going to the burner with good precision and know exactly how much heat I am getting to the KW.

There is no valves at all so as long as there are no chunks of rubbish, it all works fine. I can course strain the oil if need be through something like a chux wipe but most of the time I just use oil that has been settled and that has never given a problem yet with the pump setup.

 

This is true but a pretty crude burner system and they're also much more prone to explosions.

 

I had a neighbor who fired ceramics with an oil fired kiln. His system was to preheat a cat iron frying pan with a torch and drip oil onto it backed by a blower. The oil vaporized and burned just fine and he only melted his kiln down the one time before he installed a decent way to shut the oil off quickly. The one time the blower shut off the kiln didn't actually explode but it did make a pretty cool FAE device. The oil vapor sucked the oxy out of the air for several feet around it and then it back drafted for an impressive whoosh and fire ball.

 

When I said you need high psi pumps and proper nozzles I was referring to a proper fuel oil burner and no, not like the ones in the high volume steam generating boilers where I used to work. Fuel oil is far more explosively dangerous to mess with than propane or gasoline so I don't encourage folk to try figuring it out themselves.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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I think you are basing the theroy you espouse as being fact on one incident/ persons use.
As a matter of interest, have you built or USED any waste oil burners yourself at all?
No disrespect but I have learned over the years when people say things that are in no way relevant to reality, generally they are working off waht they have read and conclusions thus formed rather than having practical experience which differes substantialy.

Given that there is no way of knowing really what happened, how your neighbour was using the thing or any other detail, it's hard to give a 3rd hand report much credibility especialy it seems when you werent even present at the incident.
I fail to see what a Blower not shutting off would have to do with the creation of any sort of explosive situation. The blower supplys air which would evacuate any vapors before they were likley to get to an explosive level. If the burner or forge was hot enough to ignite the vapors, they would have lit off sooner rather than later because thats what happens with these things. If the blower was still running, the cold air keeps the mix below ignition point, it dosen't fan it up.
I know this from years of using the things.

 

I almost always leave my blower going and shut off the oil to let the burner go out and cool things down. If your neighbour was shutting off the blower and letting oil flow, then he would be doing something stupid and just as dangerous no matter if he were using Oil or gas which is also popular.

 

As for Crude, I can controll the heat output to the specific Kw and also the type of flame IE, Neturalising, reducing whatever.
Not sure how many gas Burners can control the heat to the KW or have a Turndown ration of 10:1 or more plus the ability to control the flame output. I can run the burner in the vid down to 2-3 Kw and I reckon I could push it to 400 easily. Show me a single industrial gas or oil burner that can do that.

Just because I had a mega burner in the video running wild, Don't be fooled by the control and practacality of this design. Just because it isn't complicated does not mean it's crude.

As for explosions, in the 5+ years I have been building and using these things and the HUNDREDS of Litres of oil I have burned, Never had one yet nor will I. The things are vented at 2 points. There is nothing to hold the pressure in the burner to create an explosion. Anything like a kiln an oil burner runs in also has to be vented in and out so while you may be able to get a good Puff, At the end of the day the physical requirements for an explosion just don't exist no matter how dramatic people want to make things sound.

 

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This was prototype MK1 a couple of years ago, I built it in about 15 minutes for a bet. it is burning unused motor oil which is harder to burn than old stuff and it was only just lit so it's running very rich in the photo. I have since made a pre-combustion heat vaporizer version but haven't done a lot of testing on it yet.

post-42888-0-55678800-1379337787_thumb.j

 

 

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I don't fault you for not taking hearsay as fact. You are right, I didn't see the neighbor's kiln melt down nor the FAE event, I stayed away after seeing the lashup in preheat. Having spent a couple years loading fuel trucks I am reasonably aware of how explosive fuel oil is. Please don't take my word, check it out yourself.

 

What happens when the air supply to a superheated furnace shuts down but the fuel doesn't. The fuel burns all the oxy and the fire goes out but the fuel is still being dumped into the heat so it vaporizes. Once the vapors spread to a flammable ratio it ignites. This is exactly what happened to the neighbor's kiln. No I didn't SEE it blow but the 40'dia black scorch mark centered on the kiln was obvious for a week.

 

His kilns and mishaps were neighborhood legend.

 

I'll give you the relative safety of some oils, motor oil is pretty non-explosive unless you build yourself a BLEVE as described.

 

NO he didn't shut the blower off before shutting the oil down. I can't tell you how happy I am YOU don't live in a place where power failures can happen.

 

Killing the blower on a propane gun burner doesn't generally result in more than an exciting flare up, at least not burners of a size used by small operators like me.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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I'll give you the relative safety of some oils, motor oil is pretty non-explosive unless you build yourself a BLEVE as described.

 


 

 

 

 

Oh good lord! Here we go again.

Could you please explain with detail and precision exactly the physical parameters that would allow a BLEVE to occour in the practical use of a Kiln or Forge?
You use the word BLEVE but I have real doubts as to if you actually do understand what that is and how it occours. I think its a case of using dramatic words to try and push your agendas on what you believe to scare others with nothing but FUD.
But again, please Explain how a BLEVE would occour with relation to a Kiln or furnace.
 

So far from what you have said, this is what I have concluded.

*You have never built, used or in fact seen an oil burner working in a forge or Kiln.
*Most of your knowledge of the things comes from a single source, your neighbour whom had a reputation as basicaly being ignorant and an idiot and at best had highly unusual practices in the way he operated a Kiln rather than a forge.
* You think oil is more explosive that Propane or gasoline.  ( That one is pretty telling as to your overall position)

* You use words to describe events that are totaly unrelated and physicaly impossible to occour in the practical use of  burner  as is the topic of this forum.

In debates like this I like to take a step back and take a look at reality. In this case that would be along the lines of:
How many reported and known incidents of BLEVES and FAE like events have actually occoured with all the people around the world using oil burners in forges?  ( or Kilns or anything else?)

There is a possibility an Elephant may fall out of a cargo plane and through my roof while I lie in bed sleeping and kill me and my famiily but I'm not ready to stregenthen the roof to allow for such an occourance or move underground just yet. None the less I could drone on endlessly about the danger of falling elephants from Aeroplanes despite the inconvinent fact of it never actually happening ... yet.

Over the years I have read endless warnings and saftey sissy carry on about all manner of things that people preach dire and sensationalist warnings about however without fail, when one looks at the number of incidents of these things actually occouring, the number is non existant or minimal and if any have occoured, there is almost always an idiot behind them that defies common sense and logic.

If the warnings for things I have done for years bore any semblence to the real and practical danger, I'd be dead about 150 times over by now.


 

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BLEVE = Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion. I already described to the best evidence and eye witness testimony available to me how one occurred at the neighbor's kiln. Including the source cause being a power failure. I actually went to school regarding the things, seeing as I inspected recorded and sealed tankers at a fuel and asphalt loading dock.

 

I'm reasonably sure most folk here have good enough reading comprehension to see through your deliberate Misrepresentations of what I've written.

 

You are too boorish for me to continue wasting my time on you.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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BLEVE = Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion.

 

I'm reasonably sure most folk here have good enough reading comprehension to see through your deliberate Misrepresentations of what I've written.

 

You are too boorish for me to continue wasting my time on you.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Well I thought I knew what a BLEVE was and it was nothing like what you describe.

I went and looked it up again through several sources and they described what I thought it to be in the first place. It does not in any way fit your description however which is why I asked for your explanation of it and why you thought the term appropriate. Again you have failed to give any explanation as to your position. 3rd hand reports and knowledge of a totally different situation and equipment is not sufficient to be creditable. 

There is none of the requirements of a BLEVE in an oil fired Furnace or Kiln.  As such, there is simply no way for a BLEVE to occur.  Nor a Fuel/ air explosion. 

I don't mean to be rude but you make a lot of statements warning people off things you don't like and use incorrect terms and reasoning to do so.

When asked for a reasoning with the statements you make,  you do not provide any backup to support them at all.

I'm sorry you find me trying to correct what is plainly wrongful terminology and misrepresentations of the dangers of oil burners boorish but frankly I get fed up with seeing the endless information on the net from people that have no experience or knowledge making patently incorrect statements and arguing them to be indisputable fact when the complete opposite is true.

I'm sure you know a lot about and are well qualified in your trade of inspecting asphalt tankers and as I know beans about them, I would never try to tell you about them.  Given that you have no experience or first hand knowledge with oil burners nor is there any other sources of mishaps to support what is basically fear mongering on your part through patently incorrect terms, there is no evidence to support to what you are saying.

And that is just not my opinion, there are no sources I can find of references to oil forges or kilns exploding and your terms of BLEVE and FAE simply do not fit the established descriptions. I am not being overly pedantic for the sake of it, these terms you are using are very specific and are never used as generic terms for anything else so to use them as you have is patently misleading.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to make anyone that may read this thread aware that the situation was not all gloom and doom as you paint it nor do the dangers exist you purport.  I'm sure after this friendly exchange people will be encouraged to look up other information and not be automatically put off by your comments.

I'm sure most folk here have good enough reading comprehension to look up the terms you have used and research the occurrences of the dangers you make out and see through the misrepresentations you have made.

In doing their own research, people will be able to form their own opinions, enhance their knowledge and make their own risk assessment from there.

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I am new in this discussion but will jump right in with a thought,,,Could an oil fired forge do a few things? 

Can it boil the fuel?

Can that create flammable vapors?

Can those vapors expand?

Can those vapors be ignited?

Would igniting them create an explosion?

 

My take is this: It can do all of the above with one small, (or not) exception. To explode the flammable vapors would need to be contained in some way. This could be a steel container of small size or a large container such as a shop with doors and windows closed. 

 

Without a container. I think we could indeed expect some sort of a reaction if ignited. I have in my minds eye a large fireball

proportionate to the amount of vapors at ignition. And of course the three sides of the fire triangle must be correct. 

And having been in the direct middle of one such fireball I can say it is rather dramatic. (State of the art firefighting gear was employed and a blessing.) That was fed by gasoline but most fuels will react in similar manner when heated. 

 

An easy way to think for me anyway about explosions vs rapid burn is with smokeless gun powder. If a pile is lit in the open it will burn. If lit in a enclosure it will try and escape..Quite dramatic. 

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I am new in this discussion but will jump right in with a thought,,,Could an oil fired forge do a few things? 

Can it boil the fuel?

Can that create flammable vapors?

Can those vapors expand?

Can those vapors be ignited?

Would igniting them create an explosion?

 

I have never seen, heard or can imagine a situation where there would be a tank of fuel situated near a forge or kiln where the whole lot were subject to boiling and venting as is the case in a BLEVE. As the name describes it is the Boiling of a liquid which turns to vapor that overcomes the ability of the container to hold it which causes the scenario.  Who the hell Boils a tank of their fuel with a Forge or Kiln?

If the fuel were admitted to a hot forge or kiln without air it certainly can vaporizer and ignite when it does contact a source of oxygen. Inside an enclosure this would be limited. Once the oxygen is burned up, the burning stops.  Said enclosure would have to be vented in the first place for the burner to be operating to get it hot enough to cause ignition.

I use an oil burner in a large brick pizza oven and I have done lit the vapors off plenty of times. I think I actually singed the hairs on my arms once. Not nearly as dramatic as some would have people believe.
The oven is sealed with only one door at the front. It has no chimney.  I have had an amount of oil vapour flash off loads of times and there is a bit of a loping flame and that's it. There are no scorch marks 30 ft around the oven, no craters or FAE or BLEVE like occurrences, the physics are not there to cater to them.

In an outdoor situation there is no way for anything more than a puff of flame to happen  as  there is no containment. As was cited as being completely non eventful in the case of using propane, it will be no different with oil or any other vapor. I agree with your statement that all fuels when heated to a vapor in the case of liquids are going to react much the same.  If gas is going to be nothing to worry about, neither is oil vapor.

In the case of containment, an oil burner needs air to operate so there can never be a fully sealed containment which hugely minimizes the chance of explosion. In a forge or a kiln there must be an in and an out for the hot burnt gasses. Such vents would be of sufficient size to allow the escape of any pressure from a vapor ignition miles before it reached explosive level.

If one were operating an oil burner in a shed where the fuel could continue to feed when the air blower stopped,and  if the person operating the unit was inattentive enough to allow the huge amount of vapors and smoke to accumulate to cause an explosion, the problem would still not be the fault of the oil burner, it would be entirely that of the moron operating the thing!
There is no saving the world from idiots, they are especially clever at coming up with new and improved stupidity every day.

 

A way I look at these things is to turn them round and consider what it would take to create the fear mongered Gloom and doom if you were TRYING to get whatever it was to happen... Similar to what they do on the myth busters show people would be aware of. Bust the theory then try to see what it would take to create the problem on cue.

It simply would not be possible to create an explosion, BLEVE, FAE or anything but a FUD in a practical, working forge or oil burning kiln.  For one thing the containment isn't there and the "Explosive" would be of a very low order and simply not energetic enough. One would have to construct a Kiln or forge that simply would not operate as it's designed purpose in order to create any sort of remotely explosive like event.

 

Your gun powder analogy is spot on!

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Wow, it's amaising how quickly a discussion can get bent out of shape!  I suppose it's healthy debate ;) yea right.

 

I for one use UMO burners in both forges and in my foundry, mine is a simple start on propane and switch slowly to UMO(that has been centrefuged and filtered - what I use for fuel in my diesel pick-up). I  use a sophisticated oil dispencer( IV  bag and dripper) I try not to have large amounts on acselerant(oil, gas or fuel)  near hot things, not too smart imho. the oil simply drips down a pipe onto a half sphere situated in the blowers airflow(there is some "law"(I think Boyls but don't take my word for it ) that says oil will disburce uniformly on a shpere or somesuch - well it does anyway and this gets the oil to burn "clean and hot." the only problem in the forge that i have had is saturation on the wall opposite the blower(rarely but it hapens) so i have "cured"that by placing a piece of 310s/s there. I know you can create an explosion with woodgas if you try hard enough. Heavens guys have even blown up grain silo"s by "just chucking some flour in the air " :D

 

Ian

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Some people like to over dramatize things and insist their opinion is correct even when they have no experience with what they are talking about Nor is there any other evidence from others to support their position as having credibility.
They make things escalate when they argue they are right and won't listed to fact or logic. 

 

Why should they be allowed to make false and misleading accusations about something when what they are saying is patently wrong?

The internet is a fantastic resource but unfortunately there is not monitoring or checking as to the accuracy of statements made. Therefore it is full of rubbish and garbage presented and repeated as fact when there is no truth to it at all.
I get sick to death of this and if anyone gets upset about me correcting misinformation with fact, hopefully they won't post any more garbage next time.

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I still want to try a oil burning forge. For over 20 years that i served the military has used oil burning heaters and the14 years I was the maintence tech on fuel oil heaters for water at Excello in Americus ga we used oil with very little or no problems for the exception of an untrained members not keeping the filters changed or trying to use the blowers to warm lunch ,,,, funny how a soup can will pop if yiu dont put a small hole in it....

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I have been thinking of ways to utilize the large amount of waste oil my business creates each month. Instead of me paying for 20 pound tanks of propane every now and then - I have been trying to come up with a safe and economical way to utilize the waste oil. My plan would be to use a 12 volt 40 PSI agricultural diaphragm pump and have it pressurize the oil via a ag. sprayer tip and atomize it into the same venturi as my propane burner. I have a small squirrel cage fan to add in additional air if need be. The pressurized line could easily have a regulator and a return line to the holding tank. I can also adjust air flow by putting a simple boiler valve at the junction to spill excess air. This all seems very doable. My only concern would be contamination of my refractory material. I think this could be limited if the forge was started with propane and run until good heat was established. This thread; BTW, is very entertaining to read. I thank each of you who have contributed. Senator

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