What size legs?

[oldanvilyoungsmith]

I've got a possible job comin up, and the customer wants a freestanding (floor, not tabletop) pole basically, with hooks all over it to display mugs on. (A mug tree)

 

I'm thinking it'll be probably 5-5.5' tall, and it'll have 4 legs to stand on. Considering it's height, how far out should each leg (the legs will be curving out from the main part)  extend to make it stable enough to stay standing safely. 

I don't want the legs sticking out extremely far, because she doesn't want prospective customers looking at the mugs to trip over them or kick them.  But it needs to be pretty steady, because customers will be taking jars off, putting them back, etc. And it can't fall over.
I'll probably be using 5/8 sq for the whole thing (except the hooks). 
 

 

Anyone done something like this before and have some advice to offer?

Thanks ya'll,  Stephen


 

[Charles R. Stevens]

I haven't done exactly that, but it comes to mind that in a business space it needs to stand up to just about anything. I would actually consider using a heavy round plate, like the base of a miccraphone stand or flore lamp base. Then add legs as braces and decei decretive elements. (Think 25# weight plate) not unlike the concrete filled base of a mechanics grinder or vice stand.

[John McPherson]

Five feet tall? I would suggest a very heavy disk for a base, I mean 3 feet in diameter and over 100 pounds.More is better.

 

No way any configuration of 5/8" stock for legs is going to keep some ADHD little darlin' from knocking that over without bolting it to the floor. Better to brace it to, or hang it from a wall or ceiling. Waaay too much liability for a public space.

[DSW]

Only down side to flat plate is it seldom sits well if the floor is uneven. A few small "feet" under the plate will solve that issue however. What you are doing is putting a large mass at the bottom to counteract any forces applied at the top. Heavy weight down low, like big ball and claw feet or a thick center column at the bottom would do something similar.  Make the base a large coffee mug and fill it solid or let them use it for some other sort of "bulk" item for sale...

 

The farther out the hooks stick out from the column, the more length to your legs or mass you'll need to counteract any forces.

[Frosty]

I'm on board with the heavy disk base or some little darling  is going to tip it over climbing on it. Even with a wide heavy base this is a possibility I'm thinking a pair of struts anchoring it to a wall is about as close to a guarantee as you'll get.

 

The cup hooks don't need to support more than a ceramic mug so if they're small and springy a kid won't be able to climb them. They'll be too uncomfortable to hold onto and they'll just straighten under more than a lb or two weight.

 

You could make the verticals from something nice and springy so if a little darling tries climbing or otherwise messing with it it will shake, setting off a clinky rattle audible all over the store. That way the worst that will happen is mommy will have to pay for broken mugs rather than the shop owner having to pay for a broken darling.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Bigred1o1]

do you know if its possible to have the display hang down from the ceiling instead? that might be a way around the stability problem and as well it could turn this from a mug tree into a mug chandelier

[Charles R. Stevens]

The real salution is to show mommy and her brat the door like when we were kids. Didn't see brats ridding bikes in K-mart like you see In Wallmart. Little snots. would have had red butts, I know I remember my mom bar owing a mans belt in K-mart. Right in the Ille with the flashing blue light. Not exactly the "blue light special" I was expecting.
Little bit of going and cheek, 3'x 2" plate and coil spring (think play ground) then let the little monkey. try climming it.

[Glenn]

Ceiling mount ending 3 feet from the floor, and well secured to the ceiling will work. If you can locate a corner then you can secure the end of the pole to the walls for added stability.

 

Floor mount, a big heavy disc maybe 3 feet in diameter with 3 small feet on the bottom side. Roll the edges just a mite and fabricate a coffee cup to fit into the "saucer". The mug pole could be welded in place and wired to the ceiling (vertically) and a couple of horizontal wires at the top for stability. The cup will keep most of the little darlings from climbing or swinging on the pole. It can provide a container for other products for sale, such as bags of coffee.

 

I like the approach of using coat hanger wire tohold the mugs, and not support body weight.  

 

The whole thing should be bullet proof and way to much bottom heavy. You could make it with a receiver on the bottom of the pole so the pole inserts into the receiver and bolts in place. Use eyes at the top to secure the wires.

[DSW]

Downside I see to ceiling mounts or hanging it is that many stores have drop ceilings and it's not convenient to hang something heavy. Some what the same thing applies to wall braces. It's often not convenient to attach to walls because of other store fixtures. Another point is that free standing displays are often moved around to make room for other displays etc, so a free standing unit that is self contained makes the most sense. It might even pay to think about a display that can be broken down for storage in some situations.  

[oldanvilyoungsmith]

Well, It can't be mounted, or hung from the ceiling in any way because this is to take to display mugs at shows, in front of or beside the table.  The same problem comes to play with the large heavy base.  I was thinking of putting some sort of weight on the bottom, but it can't be extremely heavy. She needs to be able to move it around and set up the booth.

Thanks for all the advice though, wish I'd been more clear at first.

[DSW]

In that case you might want to think about some way to make the ballast "portable". Lead shot bags would add weight, yet still be portable individually. They could be added to the "cup" mentioned above and hidden easily or even just tossed across the legs even though this isn't an elegant solution.  We used to often use 8 lb lead shot bags to stabilize our displays for dive shows. The weights were simply repurposed soft dive weights that are commercially available. Cast lead feet that attach would be a more elegant solution to the problem. If this is for an outdoor event, water makes a great portable ballast... It's heavy and easy to transport and self forms to fit odd spaces. Just pull the plug and drain when done...

 

Making it in parts that can be assembled could gain you two things. One you can keep the base heavy and still be portable, and two with it disassembled it's easier to transport in a vehicle and store between shows. Something like I originally envisioned you were talking about that is 5 to 6 feet tall with 18 to 24" legs attached would be a PITA to transport even in a truck or van. Make the legs/base removable and make the post so it can be broken down and the same unit could be transported in a car trunk no problem.

[SmoothBore]

I'd be inclined to incorporate one of those ornate, cast iron Christmas Tree bases into the design.

 

That should be sufficiently stable, cost effective, portable, and in keeping with the "Ironwork" theme.

 

 

 

 

.

[VaughnT]

Rolling chairs for sitting around the computer usually have five legs, with a span of approximately 20".  If you look at older chairs from back in the day, they only had four legs but folks found that the chair would flip out from under you when you leaned over to pick something up off the floor.  The same applies to a tall stand in that a small base has to be very heavy to resist tipping, or the number of legs had to be increased so the distance between them is at a minimum.

The weight needed to support a vertical column against tipping increases exponentially as the diameter of the base decreases.  

 

Microphone stands have a heavy base, but that base is less than a foot in diameter.  Office chairs have a light base not because they get picked up often, but because they span approximately 20" and don't need mass to keep them from tipping over when you lean down to get something off the floor. They are relying on the number of legs (5 not 4) and the spread of those legs to prevent tipping.

 

If they're going to be indoors on concrete floors for the most part, I'd be inclined to have someone with a waterjet or laser cut me out a doughnut from some quarter-inch plate.  Cut a doughnut maybe 20" in diameter, maybe 3" wide .  Have four arms radiating off of the center post and rivet or weld them to the doughnut.  As the legs approach the central column, you can increase their height from the floor and add ornamental scrollwork without increasing the tripping hazard.

 

And if you can't go with the plate doughnut, you can use a hoop made from quarter-inch round stock.  Bend it into a 20" hoop.  Then take another piece and bend it into a slightly smaller hoop so that the two of them nest - hoop-in-a-hoop.  Join them with weld or collar or however, and have legs returning to the center column.  How many nesting hoops-in-a-hoop you do will determine how heavy it is, but it would be something very easy for a basic shop to accomplish.  In the end, you have a very wide footprint that has some weight to it but is very close to the floor and has a minimal trip hazard. 

 

Make it dismantle-able so the doughnut can be rolled back to the car at the end of the show.

 

If the customer is going to have a table or two set up for display, I would try to come up with a way to brace the tall stand to the table.  They're not going to want the stand too far away from eyesight or it will make thefts easier to miss.  Most folding tables are less than an inch thick, so you could fabricate a c-clamp on the end of an arm to join the stand to the table.  This would add great stability and decrease the risk of a tip, but would be easy to fabricate.

[oldanvilyoungsmith]

This is the sketch I worked up originally. I drew it all to scale before adding the legs, then drew on the legs trying to get something that looked "right" to my eyes. When I got something that looked good, and measured it, those legs would each stick out approx. 12".  giving the base a 24" foot print.

 

Would legs like that, with some sort of weight on the middle column (to lower the center of gravity)  work? 
 

I'm going to ask the customer about clamping to a table also, see if that would be feasible. 

 

 

 

 

[ThorsHammer82]

Clamping to the table, or having the legs extend under the table so the table lets could sit on the tree legs would also help. that way there is no need for additional storage space for weights and what not. Personally, I'd make the upper half Super light and the lower half only moderately heavy. this will keep the center of gravity down on its own. How many mugs are supposed to be on the tree? Maybe reconcider the floor mounted trees and go with smaller table top versions that can be clamped to the top of the table or secured in some other way. I would think that a 5' tall tree made from 5/8" bar would get to be a bit unwieldy for a woman if she's dainty.

[VaughnT]

The way your legs go flat as they reach the terminus is good - decreases the trip hazard significantly, but gives you a wide footprint.

 

The overall weight is something to take into account as you know your customer.  You could put a socket halfway up the stalk and switch from 5/8" for the lower half to 3/8" for the upper half.  Strength isn't too critical for the weight of the cups, and it would help lower the center of gravity while making it easier to transport.

 

Overall, looks very good.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I had an opertunity to look closely at a five leged IV stand today (my better half's mom is in the hospital)I would have to say that incorporating that in the leg design is a good ideal.