Non-forged tools

[Bentiron1946]

I made some repousse/chasing tools from old chisels and punches by using even older files purchased at yard sales and then used wet/dry sandpaper to shine them up. The work as well as the expensive store bought ones that cost about $15 each.

[ThomasPowers]

Frosty the powerhammer predates the use of paper in Europe

[Jim Coke]

Greetings All,

 

I believe Kugran started this thread will good intensions to bring out some simple tools fabricated by us .  We have all been doing it for years and have a lot to pass on..   I have many many that I will post in the future , Just like my post vise spacer .   I will not under this category.  Too much hot verses cold..   I believe in the old KISS theory.    Simple post would be more productive for our many upcoming smiths. 

 

Had to vent

 

Jim

[Timothy Miller]

I do make some fabricated tools like bolsters and such but its just a hole in a plate not exactly rocket science.  I find most of the time if I weld up a tool that will see serious forging happen in it, It eventually fails most of the time next to the weld.  I much prefer tools forged from solid steel.  I do use my mill to reface my power hammer dies from time to time.  I have welded up bending forks and scrolling and bending  jigs but this is nothing new.  I guess what annoys me is this is a site devoted to forging and the thread is basically asking "how do I forge stuff by not forging tools?"  Its like going on an organic cooking site and asking whats your best recipe for using canned beans.  We should be encouraging every member to forge more not less and to stretch their skills.   Its not about tradition its about having the skills to make what you want to make without doubting yourself or saying that's too hard.   Would you tell a classical violin player that they wasted their time learning good form and studding the classics.  

[Jim Coke]

Greetings All again,

 

If this forum is only about forging  they will have to remove 80 percent of the categorys in the directory.

 

Jim

[Timothy Miller]

Greetings All again,

 

If this forum is only about forging  they will have to remove 80 percent of the categorys in the directory.

 

Jim

I said the site is devoted to forging not only about forging.  But that begs the question why is so much content here not about picking up a hammer and smacking some hot iron?

[macbruce]

I said the site is devoted to forging not only about forging.  But that begs the question why is so much content here not about picking up a hammer and smacking some hot iron?

Yeesh, This is one itty bitty thread out of thousands Tim. Seems to me there's plenty of threads here about forging tools.

Fabricating tools is often the smarter/faster way to go when you don't want doink around and get to work on a project asap. Alot of the tools I fab get used once and then get hucked into the pile....Not every bit of tooling you make in your shop has to be an heirloom........ :)

[Frosty]

Frosty the powerhammer predates the use of paper in Europe

 

Right you are, power hammers predate most industry in Europe I believe. As I recall water powered hammers and dewatering pumps were early Roman weren't they?

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Joel OF]

I guess what annoys me is this is a site devoted to forging and the thread is basically asking "how do I forge stuff by not forging tools?"

I may be bending the rules but at the top left of the screen it under the site logo it says "Blacksmithing & Metalworking". If my pinch of salt became a handful with this thread then I made a mistake this time round, sorry, it was just meant to be a bit of fun.

 

So that I could learn traditional hot cutting I made a hot cut out of a pnuematic drill bit, I cut it with an angle grinder and ground it down with an angle grinder, I think the end justifies the means. For novices it's just nice to know you can make the traditional tool you want by fabricating with only modern tools. I want to be able to do the traditional techniques but I don't feel the need to slavishly use traditional techniques to make the tool I need...I don't have the skill or know-how for that.

[Timothy Miller]

Its not tradition or rules its a way of working and once you embrace it you will really see the value of it. Its a process driven craft.  Working hot can often be faster than cold if you have the skills and experience. Cutting hot is still used in industry just look at any industrial forge shop or steel mill they cut hot because it is faster and cheaper.  Purge the concept from your mind that this is that and this is this. You set up this wall between what is traditional and not it will hold you back from progressing for years. Try the hard stuff and learn it it will become second nature. Instead of reaching for the angle grinder all the time.  A person comes to you and wants a strap hing for a historic home are you going to grind it to shape and weld on a pipe for a barrel. It will take longer and the result will be less attractive.   I used to think like you it really stymied my growth as a smith.  

 

The first thing I think to do is stick a bar in the fire and shape it. The reason I would not use a angle grinder is because I would have to wait for the bar to cool down, abrasives are expensive, the tool is loud, smelly and shoots sparks everywhere.  I can do the same thing at the forge with out a grinder I often use a rasp hot when the iron is hot enough it is faster than grinding.   

[ThomasPowers]

Romans tended more toward using slaves over powered equipment; though some interesting things have turned up.

 

The earliest triphammer I know of was a personal communication at the Medieval Technology Conference held at PennState about 20+ years ago now.  One of the speakers had been involved in the excavation of the forge and said it dated to the 9th century.  Of course in the intervening years new finds might move this date around a bit...

[rockstar.esq]

Tim's last comment touched on something I really agree with.  Power tools are pretty loud, smelly, and messy.  I switched to a bellows box to avoid the drone of a fan motor.  This is a hobby for me so production isn't everything.  I made some dinner guests laugh a while back telling them I enjoy the quiet of blacksmithing.  Granted the ting of the anvil's there, but the rest is pretty peaceful.

 

Everything has it's place, I'm glad I have the option of power tools.

[Wroughton]

Tim,

 

It is a little different with a production shop with forges running or the ability to hit the induction heater whenever you want. 

 

I seem to remember you waxing poetic about your love of the metal lathe. 

 

Some (most) of the people here don't have the wherewithal to keep a forge running 24/7 until they figure out how to get every step done hot. 

 

You're making me feel inadequate  ;) and I feel your pain. 

 

I operate a "Forge" but some days there might not be a forge lit in the shop. It's loud, sparks fly, work gets done.

 

Even my best clients won't pay for "full forge" most of the time on bigger items, and forge kwan do moves aside for fab fu.  :ph34r:

[Timothy Miller]

I am a competent fabricator,  blacksmith and some time machinist.  I love all kinds of metalwork.  But in my heart of hearts i am a blacksmith.  I often fire up the forge in my spare time or steal a few moments in the work day to try out a technique.  I do it for the love of gaining knowledge and skill.  I do and have done straight fab work to pay the bills or where there is a opportunity to make good profit.  Just 2 weeks ago I was making rails without any forge work in them.  For me it is about ever improving your skill set and making what you want to make in an uncompromising way.  The things I love the most out of all the work I have done are the things I took the time to forge and finish to the best of my ability.  The things I threw together just to get the job done eventually end up forgotten in the scrap drum.  I started welding and grinding pipe rails and drilling holes in I beams at the age of 20, but on the weekend I was pumping bellows on a coal forge at the local historical society without a clue of how to really make anything.   20 years on the only thing I regret was not learning more about real forge work earlier on. 

[Chinobi]

Gents, the whole point of the thread was merely to ask what items people had made without directly forging something themselves (yes the mill does it, but we all get our bar stock from something that has been refined and hammered at some point along the line, nobody is digging them up), not to start an argument over the merits of learning the fundamentals or how when you have practiced something for 20 years it goes faster, that goes without saying.  there is no need for all the back and forth about which method to make said tool is superior, just that it has been made, period.

[Timothy Miller]

Gents, the whole point of the thread was merely to ask what items people had made without directly forging something themselves (yes the mill does it, but we all get our bar stock from something that has been refined and hammered at some point along the line, nobody is digging them up), not to start an argument over the merits of learning the fundamentals or how when you have practiced something for 20 years it goes faster, that goes without saying.  there is no need for all the back and forth about which method to make said tool is superior, just that it has been made, period.

This is a discussion forum the whole point is to discuss hence the back and forth.  It seemed to me the whole point was to avoid forging to make tools for forging. 

[JNewman]

There are times where fabricating, machining, grinding or even casting is the best way to make a tool or is an important part of making a tool.  But I do agree with Tim's  point that very often the fastest  made, higher quality tool is best made  by forging, and it should be the first method we think of.  While it may be impractical to be forging a tool like a guillotine,  a tool like a  hotcut can be forged much quicker than grinding.   Forging it uses the material more effectively, does not burn up expensive grinding wheels and can be done much more quickly.   Even when I am going to machine a die because I need the accuracy  I often rough it out by forging it.   I  do often think some of the "shortcuts" taken do actually take longer than forging the item. 

 

I have a number of tools that I make for the steelmaking industry.  Some of these tools where redesigned to be machined and fabricated when the steelmills closed down their blacksmith shops.   The fabricated tools were failing in service because a lot of alloy steels do not weld very well.  As well they tool longer to make.  The machine shops  came to me because I could forge the tools rather than fabricate them.  I am making a better quality tool often for less money while making a good profit. 

[Chinobi]

This is a discussion forum the whole point is to discuss hence the back and forth.  It seemed to me the whole point was to avoid forging to make tools for forging. 

i agree this is a discussion board for the purpose of discussing, my point was that you are discussing the wrong topic! :blink:

 

if you reread kurgans original post you will see that the intent was expressly to avoid that topic, if anything it was phrased as a challenge to not forge.  there was also no reference to the use of the tools limiting the scope to tools later intended to be used on hot iron.

 

bear in mind that not everyone has access to the equipment (ok and skills <_<) to forge everything that could/would/should be forged, so what may be a shortcut for someone like yourself with sufficient equipment and mojo to make whatever you want from whatever you want whenever you want may be the only route accessible to a lesser equipped person.

 

my first post stated that i had to grind out a punch from a brand new cold chisel and reprofile the edge on another brand new cold chisel to give it a smooth crown so i could cold cut sheet metal.  i would have very much preferred to forge those out myself, and im pretty sure i could have done it too, but i dont have a proper forge or real anvil at home so i work out of a school 60 miles south of home at best 2 weekends a month, so bench and angle grinder to the rescue!

[Timothy Miller]

Perhaps you should build a small coffee can gas forge and set a large sledge hammer head in a bucket of concrete then you could forge small tools as needed.  I have a micro forge and I used a lot until I got my induction heater.  

[Joel OF]

 I do agree with Tim's  point that very often the fastest  made, higher quality tool is best made  by forging, and it should be the first method we think of.

I didn't mean to suggest that it shouldn't be, this was only meant to be a bit of harmless fun and I didn't mean for it to sound like I was asking for short cuts.

[thingmaker3]

I made a cold-use centerpunch on my lathe, and I made a cold-cut using the lathe, a bandsaw, and disk sander. AND I HAD FUN DOING IT. :P  :P :P  :P