How to? Triangular, Tapered, C-Scroll

[Borntoolate]

On another post I asked about a Fleur De Lis.   Still working on that.   Could do it simple but am headed for a Triangular, tapered, C-Scroll arrangement.   This would make up the two sides of the Fleur De Lis which would then be collared together.   Conceptually this is where I am headed.   The middle is complete.   See pic at link below.   Any advice.   This is turning out to be more of a challenge than I thought.   BUt sometimes I am just plain dense. 

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&sa=N&hl=en&biw=1414&bih=691&tbm=isch&tbnid=Fatm-YkV20UgAM:&imgrefurl=http://www.fleurdeliscollectibles.com/&docid=-J6mespEOpevNM&imgurl=http://www.fleurdeliscollectibles.com/fleur-de-lis-print-c10293514_hc69.jpg&w=350&h=352&ei=30KIUb-rI46tygH30oCQCQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:0,s:0,i:164&iact=rc&dur=621&page=1&tbnh=173&tbnw=172&start=0&ndsp=23&tx=94&ty=45

 

Uncertainties I have:

The middle is a bit of a flatish wide triangle.  (say 20/20/140 degrees-ish)  Working the edges on the anvil edge is doable.  like a knife.  Working a less flat triangle seems harder.  Especially with the taper.     I have a swedge block that I could use for the triangle.   BUt adding the taper seems a challenge since the swedge only has distinct widths.  I am not looking to grind anything or cut out the shape.  I want it all hand forged.

 

Let's say I get a straight, triangle, with a taper on two ends.  I could see it being quite squirrely being bent into a C-Scroll.   Repairing that would also distort and make irregular the top part of the triangle.  The top does not have to be pointy... if that makes sense.

 

I do figure that the collar will be decorative and not structural.  I plan to weld the three pieces from behind and then collar.

 

This to me is turning out to be a challenge.   Dimensions are roughly 8" high (top tip to bottom tip) and expect the c-scrolls to be on the order of 3/8" thick at the thickest point.

 

 

 

 

[metalmangeler]

If you make a triangle in your swedge block, you can then drive it into a hot block at an angle or if you have a power hammer on a wedge, this will give you a tapered V swedge.

[mike-hr]

I've been goofing with this lately. ABANA education has a beveled, blown over leaf scroll as part of the grille part of the learning curriculum. After generating the triangular bevel, you can skew off the anvil bick with well placed soft blows and generate the curve you need without hurting the bevel. It's really frustrating, which is most likely why it's an educational element. If you can find the COSIRA book 'wrought ironwork', they sort of cover it, Hammers Blow had an article last summer covering it also.

[billyO]

If you plan it correctly you could take a piece of flat bar and make a 2-sided taper on each end for the points.  Then, chamfer what you want to be the inside curve first, this will curve the bar the opposite way.  Then, by doing the other side, keeping the same flat on the anvil, work the other angle, and if you planned it correctly, as you chamfer this side, the curve will go the other way and end up where you want it, no grinding necessary.  LIke a knife, like you said.  It just may take a few tries to figure out what size you need to start with. 

[billyO]

If you plan it correctly you could take a piece of flat bar and make a 2-sided taper on each end for the points.  Then, chamfer what you want to be the inside curve first, this will curve the bar the opposite way.  Then, by doing the other side, keeping the same flat on the anvil, work the other angle, and if you planned it correctly, as you chamfer this side, the curve will go the other way and end up where you want it, no grinding necessary.  LIke a knife, like you said.  It just may take a few tries to figure out what size you need to start with. 

[Rich Hale]

Try it in modeling clay first,,,,and when youi do metal,,,if it is mild steel,,remember when to ben it over the horn yoiu can cool the tip so yoiu can tap on it.

[Chinobi]

two thoughts:

instead of the traditional bending fork being two vertical round bars which would chew up your triangle edges, could you fabricate a sort of inverted bending V from a slightly flattened piece of angle iron (mounted to a hardy, or locked down with a hold down)? that way the bearing surfaces are parallel to the faces of the triangle instead of digging into the much thinner edges.  bend the first bit, shim underneath as needed to keep the top in contact as the triangle gets thinner.  maybe round the faces a little to make it operate a little smoother.

 

alternately, as you originally mentioned and billyO elaborated on, go for a knife type process.  get yourself started with a flat taper on a test piece, chamfer in on one side and keep that piece for reference for the amount of curvature that chamfer generates.  from there flat taper another piece to the same starting dimensions and pre-curve it to match the curvature of the test piece you just made and then chamfer the inside of that curve.  this should bring the whole bar back to straight (ish).  then you can chamfer the opposite side to gauge how much curvature that process generates, as it will likely differ now that the cross section has changed from rectangular to half triangular.  if you need more curvature in the end product you can increase the initial pre-curve by roughly the amount you want the end curve to increase by and that should put you within range of finish tweaks.

 

that should in theory work, and i cannot take credit for the method, i am merely expanding on a concept touched on by Mark Aspery in his first book.

 

have you thought as well about cutting the C crescents from sheet and grooving them from behind with a fullering chisel into a V cross section?  or would that defeat the hand forged intent?

 

Good luck!

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Square bent on the diagonal.

[Francis Trez Cole]

After looking at your picture it looks like the stock is on the diamond that is if the  Fleur De Lis is 3 denominational.  if you want it one sided to place on a wall. The method of making the water leaf in the Abana curriculum for the grill making is an other way to make the shape you are after. 

[FieryFurnace]

I'm with Brian Brazeal here. This fleur-de-lis is simply square stock bent and forged to accentuate the diamond. Or do you need a completely flat backside to the piece?

[doc]

I agree with Brian and David.Your image shows square stock bent on the diamond. If you want it flat on the back then I'd follow billyO's instruction.

[Frank Turley]

There are many approaches to the fleur de lis. I traded for this piece. I have no idea who forged it, but it is very well executed. I can't give you the hows, whys, and wherefores, but I can say that it is 9" in overall length. The parent stock of the three members appears to be 1/8" x 5/16".  The smith got quite a bit of side spread by probably cross peening from the back and then working carefully from the front. The outer edges of the three petals are thinned to about 20 gage. The central veins are made by forging away everything that doesn't look like a central vein. Ha!  The smith appeared to have used a little oxy welding with discretion...on the collar and inside the cups to hold the spikes in place. The back of the upper collar has a central space and a small "reverse keyhole" hanger.

 

 

[John B]

Here are a couple of some I made years ago, sorry about picture quality as i had to scan them from old photo's.

This one is attached to a fireback flat plate to give it a little character,



forged scrolls and centre, prepped and welded as an assembly at the rear,

forged a collar and cut off to fit the assembly, prepped and welded to previous assembly.

Dressed flush at rear, drilled through and rivetted in two places to stop it turning,

Alternatively, blind drill and tap from rear to attach with screws so as not to reveal fixings as this one I fitted to a firescreen



The firescreen was made to match this firebasket



you should be able to figure it out from the pics.

Good luck, have fun and let's see the finished result.

[David Gaddis]

Now that is impressive!

 

Carry on

[John B]

Not that impressive, but thank you kindly Mr G.

[Borntoolate]

This could be square and bent on the diamond.    I was thinking the back should be flat.    But the whole collar thing kinda nukes that a bit.   I was thinking wall hanging.   Don't have any clay so just plan to try something.   Where I was headed was start with round and make a soft edge triangle.   Work in the taper at the anvils edge.   Could also work in some of the scroll by working the taper more to one side.    Thanks for the interest and the comments.  I'll ponder what's been written and make a go of it.

[Borntoolate]

If you make a triangle in your swedge block, you can then drive it into a hot block at an angle or if you have a power hammer on a wedge, this will give you a tapered V swedge.

What is a hot block?  I got no power hammer.

[DanBrassaw]

He means drive a non-tapered triangle that you've forged into a heated swage blank, holding the triangle at an angle. Giving you a tapered v swage.

[Borntoolate]

well, here is how it turned out.  Finished with a brass wire brush rub.  made from some ancient rusty pitted 5/8" square from someones metal bone pile...

 

[Chinobi]

excellent! I like the fine scrolls on the points :) it looks like you ended up drawing a flat taper and chamfering the front face corners instead of going for the full triangle cross section, am I reading that correctly? is that collar actually brass/bronze, or did it just really soak up the brushing?

[Jim Coke]

Greetings All,

 

Yep its time for another ( why didn't I think of that ) 

 

The way I make fleur di leis is to taper the square bar to the shape you want .. Bulge or no bulge your option... Flatten the on diagonal in a square swedge block.   Than I use donut anvil tools made from old railroad car springs...  Just hammer form and the will turn in a nice scroll with practice..

 

I hope this stimulates your interest...   works for me...

 

Forge on and make beautiful things...

 

Jim

 

 

trouble posting 2 pictures will try again

[Jim Coke]

Greetings again.

[Borntoolate]

i don't understand the use of the donut tool?

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Born,

 

After flatting back side place the triangle down into the donut..  Lightly hammer and it will form a scroll..  It takes practice but it works well..  Pictures show the flat side and the completed  product...

 

I hope this helps      Jim

[Borntoolate]

Here are a couple of some I made years ago, sorry about picture quality as i had to scan them from old photo's.

This one is attached to a fireback flat plate to give it a little character,

Copy (2) of Fleur de Lys flat mounted.png

forged scrolls and centre, prepped and welded as an assembly at the rear,

forged a collar and cut off to fit the assembly, prepped and welded to previous assembly.

Dressed flush at rear, drilled through and rivetted in two places to stop it turning,

Alternatively, blind drill and tap from rear to attach with screws so as not to reveal fixings as this one I fitted to a firescreen

Copy (2) of Fleur de Lys on fire screen.png

The firescreen was made to match this firebasket

Copy (2) of Fleur de Lys Firebasket.png

you should be able to figure it out from the pics.

Good luck, have fun and let's see the finished result.

Wow!   Somehow I missed these as I reviewed this thread recently.   Glad I reviewed this post again...  As usual once you make something suddenly everyone wants one or my wife wants one or she wants me to make Christmas presents for everyone.    So these are some fabulous go bys!   Actually my wife always wants one.... or more.   I guess that's a good thing.

 

I am curious what you started with on the center piece and also what tools did you use to hammer it out.   I got no power hammer.   But I think I see how I could get there without one.