Cutting a sidewinder key

[evfreek]

Hi.  Is there a simple way to cut a Ford double bit sidewinder key?  This is the kind of key that is cut with what looks like a tiny milling machine with a prod to trace the template key.  There is an unlocked x-y slide table whose axis are parallel-perpendicular to the prod-cutter axis.  Is a utility cross slide vise accurate enough to act as the cutting table?

 

I have a full blacksmith's shop, including power hammer and strikers, available.  I also have fabrication equipment (press, shear, oxy fuel cutter, TIG welder, etc).  No mill or lathe.  Is this doable?

[Bob S]

[evfreek]

Hmmm, Bob S.  I don't understand a lot of these terms.  I surfed around, and did see some information on gibs, dovetails and linear slides which are kind of overwhelming.  It seems that there are something like 5 tumbler depths over the span of about 0.1 inches, so the accuracy required is below this.  Constraining the motion to xy without allowing rotation with end to end accuracy better than the lock tolerance is what is required, but I don't have an estimate of the attainable accuracy of the slide mechanisms.

[swedefiddle]

Either a good Locksmith or the DEALER will have the ability to cut that key.

 

They are making it tougher for the crooks, so the good guys don't stand a chance of cutting corners and saving a buck!!!! :) :)

 

Neil

[mike-hr]

EV, I got no idea what you're talking about.. Bob, same thing, but we own 3 Ford vehicles, and if only one of them works as described in your link, I know I've got nothing to worry about...

[evfreek]

None of the locksmiths in my town can cut that kind of key.  I figured that I could make some kind of machine or just wait until I go down to LA.

[ciladog]

If the key you want to cut is a combination of side-cut and transponder you will most likely have to go to a Ford dealer and order it.  It could cost upwards of $100.  Call some dealers and find out.

 

Side-cut keys are made by laser cutting, punching, or milling.  The machines are expensive and only the largest of locksmith compaines will be able to produce the key.

 

The time you spend triing to make some kind of setup to cut the key will most likely exceed the cost of buying one with no  guarantee it will work.

[Mike BR]

I know this is a machinists' thread, but having seen some of the engraving work out there, I'm sure there are folks who could do this with hand chisels.  

 

Not being one of those folks, I'd probably try profiling cheek plates with files, and soldering them to a central core.  Perhaps you could even take a bondo impression of the groove and use that as a master to cut cheek plates on an ordinary key machine.

 

None of that, of course, will help you with the chip.  I've heard that dealers can cut keys from a VIN number -- you might be able to order one without having to make the trip to LA.

[Jerry W.]

evfreek,

The use of the side millings and transponders is to make key duplication more difficult.  I am not saying that it cannot be done but, your chances of success are very slim.  I would recommend that you save your nickels and if you cannot find a locksmith in your area that can cut this key for you, I would go to the dealer.  Good luck, Jerry

[evfreek]

Hi.  Thanks for the suggestions.  There is an ALOA certified locksmith in my town (only one, it seems that all the rest are mainly mobile emergency opening services that operate off cellphones).  He told me not to go to a dealer, else I would have to pay a lot of money, like $400.  The key blanks are only $150, but the cutting and programming are expensive.

 

So, it was a little discouraging to hear that it would be kind of tough to do with standard blacksmithing tools.  I did a little web search and found a lot of manufacturers of sidewinder key duplicating machines, but not much information on them.  There were some interesting general pieces of knowledge on the web which were highly encouraging.

 

Here is what I found:

 

1)  These keys are typically cut with a 3/32" carbide endmill with a proprietary key vise and a prod to trace out the target key contour.

 

2)  If an enterprising blacksmith wants to get into milling, there is something even more important that speeds and feeds.  That is, what is the limit of the resources.  The limiting factor is not speeds and feeds; it is chatter due to the lack of rigidity in the machining fixture.

 

Using a milling machine is very scary to me, even though I took a high school shop course.  The reason is that the vertical mills found in typical high school shops are big, heavy and expensive.  Searching around the Internet, there was very little information on the chatter limit.  There were some Youtube videos of people doing aluminum CNC with a 1/4" bit at 20000 RPM with DOC 0.030" and 30 IPM.  For my use, it would be OK to do 1 IPM, but with the same or slightly larger depth of cut.

 

To get a quick data point, I rigged up a Dremel drill press running full speed with locked quil driving a 3/32" carbide end-mill.  I ran this into aluminum at 0.039" depth of cut at 1 IPM.  The required DOC is 0.042".  I got a slight amount of chatter hand feeding the piece, but came up with a clean slot with no tool breakage (wearing full PPE).  This is very doable!  The weak point of the Dremel drill press is the 0.50" 1" dia steel tubing post and the floppy attachment of the spindle.  The next step is to use a larger 1/4" rotary cutter with a 1/8" collet mounted on a beefier column.  Combining this with a purpose built X table with dovetails and brass gibs should really help the rigidity.

 

I would really like to forge the dovetails, but have heard that this is tricky.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

I just had a key made for my 2005 explorer at the dealership.  It cost $114.00.  And they charge more for everything here.

[evfreek]

I found a guy who said he maybe could cut a key for me, but he said that I would have to provide him a blank.  He does Focus 2012 keys, but not 2013.  It turns out that they are significantly different.  Anyway, the manager was not around, so he asked me for my number and said they would call back.

 

As for the machining project, there has been some project.  The key vise is almost done.  It consists of a sled made out of flat bar.  This will slide on the x-table against a guide for the y travel required to cut to the depths.  It has three jaw plates on it, or more correctly, three rectangular spacers.  The key and blank are retained side by side with a clamp similar to a miniature milling table clamp.

 

The part that is turning out to be challenging is facing off the two aligning parallels which will determine the bow to bit precision of the depths.  It is difficult to file a straight square edge.  I know, I know, take it to a guy with a mill to make a facing cut on the critical pieces (there are not many), but it seems that one should be able to do this with a file and vice.  I have contacted a friend with a mill, but the last time I came over with some work, things did not go well.  Would marking it with dye help?

[evfreek]

I finished the machine, and tried to cut the first blank.  It failed.  There were several reasons that it did not work.  One of the most serious ones is that, because of a craigslist purchase, I changed direction.  There was a drill press with an xy vise that came with it.  Since I did not have a drill press, this seemed like a good purchase.  The high speed spindle was put in a clamp around the column, and the xy vise was used to make the cut.  The x leadscrew was unbolted, so that the vise slid freely in x, and the y feed was used to cut the key from the bow to the tip.  The cutting went fine, but was inaccurate.  First, there was too much slop in the xy vise dovetails.  For this kind of job, an xy table is more appropriate, and only about twice the price.  Even tightening the gib screws all the way did not help much.  There was too much slop or the table would not move.  Another problem was that the key vise tilted in the xy vise.  This caused the bit to gouge deeply.  The final problem is that the table adjustment was used to adjust z.  This does not work at all, since the rack and pinion drive is not meant to use as a z feed.  The gearing mechanism causes the table to wave in xy like a flag.  The key ended up being cut in only a vague resemblence to the master.  It was terrible.  Much of this information could have been found with a web search, especially the problem with using an xy vise as an xy table.  One of my fellow smiths told me that he went through the same bad experience with a drill press and xy vise he bought at a blacksmith conference tailgate.  He said it was only useful for drilling, and both the gibs had to be locked.  The odd thing was that this important piece of information was not easy to find, only appearing in various forum posts.  Maybe somebody trying the same thing will happen upon this post, and save a lot of time.

 

There were so many problems that it looks like it will take a while.  The fellow smith suggested that I take it to techshop and do it on the CNC mill there.  I told him that I did not have g-codes or even a soft copy of the contour, and they don't have a 3-D scanner available.  So, it isn't a one day endeavor.  It really needs that key vise and tracing prod.

 

By the way, the dealer has not called me back with a price.  He told me that none of the dealers in this area has a machine since they cost $14000, and there is not enough business.  It will have to be mailed somewhere for $35 postage, but the dealer said that he did not know the labor cost yet.  I am still waiting.

[Quarry Dog]

Doesn't that kind of key have an integrated circuit chip in it that prevents counterfeiting?  I know one of my buddies had something like that on his VW Jetta a few years back.  The only place he could get keys made was at a dealership, and it cost around $200.  I would verify this with your dealer before going further.

[ThomasPowers]

You can get extreme accuracies with hand tools---however the time it takes to practice and master the art---well you could mow lawns/clean pools and buy another car or two!

[evfreek]

Hi Jerome.  That is correct.  There is a tiny RF transceiver in the handle of the key.  If you have both of the factory issued keys, you can program a third that may be bought from Ebay.  If you only have one, the car's computer will consider you a thief, and direct you to the factory.  So, once I can cut a decent test key, which will still open the driver's side door and the trunk (and turn on the radio :)), it will be time to cut the computer key.  Then it can be programmed.  A failure, such as my recent one, will mangle a piece of cheap aluminum instead of the real computer key, which costs something.  Clever, huh?  I should apply the same trick to collars, since the complex ones never seem to get cut to the correct length with the half or so thickness for each corner or 3 for a circle.

 

Thomas, I think that you misunderstand something.  I do not intend to cut the key with hand tools.  I already have a high speed spindle, which has proven to be adequately rigid and does not have the risks of a taper falling out.  The xy vise seems to be the wrong choice, and, at least according to forum posts, the xy tables, like the phase II are more appropriate.  As for wasting time, well, who is to say that I am wasting time.  Once upon a time, I was a pretty decent cyclist.  After getting fed up with the prices of Park tools, I thought I might make a few in my garage.  Cyclist buddies told me that I am wasting my time.  I could clean pools and spend more time in the saddle.  I didn't listen to them.  Eventually, I acquired a forge and anvil.  Sure enough, it started eating into my cycling time.  After a while, I couldn't keep up with the boys and I stopped riding with them.  Didn't have so much time to ride, anyway.  This year, I sold my two good bikes, since I don't ride them anymore.  They still fetched good prices.  Guess what I spent the money on.  I still have one sad bike.  It is heavy, solid and reliable, and I am not always changing parts, so it doesn't require me to forge tools.

[Quarry Dog]

Cool, I just wanted to make sure you didn't get your car to start freaking out and not be able to stop it.  That might be fun to explain to the cops :P.

[evfreek]

Naah.  I think that the car will just not stay running.  My previous car was a Malibu, and after a while, it would all of a sudden cut out and a light on the dash would flash "help, I'm being stolen."  I called the dealer, and they accused me of being a thief.  I surfed the web, and it appears that there is a sensor in the keyswitch that detects off axis forces.  It interprets these as prying.  There was a leaf, a happy face, and a forge welded heart on my keychain, all made with hammer and anvil.  After I removed them, there were no further "stolen" problems.

 

I just made a set of hermaphrodite calipers for setting the distance between the bit and the prod.  This should help improve the accuracy of the tumbler depths.  The offset is set with a big bolt.  Once I tighten this up a bit, it should stay fixed.  I am now shopping for a better xy cross slide.  The general consensus is that the import tables work better but still not all that well.  The good brands like Troyke are kind of expensive.  Note that like the drill press, a cross slide table is not an expense that is just associated with making one key.  It will certainly useful for other things.

[Rickadile]

The key blank with chip in it is $7.00 on the internet. The  problem is, places that have the machine will want you to give them $90.00 and use their blank. 
I have 2 blanks and the hardware store near me that has the sidewinder machine said they will not cut my blank. 
I too would like to fabricate a simple vise with a 3/32 dowel and bit. 

An already cut, chipped key is $53.00 from the Chevy dealer. 
A locksmith will get closer to $100.00. 
Instructions to add your new chipped key to your vehicles computer are on the web. Easy to do. 
if you have a late model, 2 existing keys makes the programming easier. 
There is a way to program with only one existing key, but it is more involved. 
 

[PearsonHarden]

But you need remove commercial link someone to cut the key so it's better to buy the chip from them also.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Mod30
Remove commercial link per TOS