RichJ Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Has anyone had any practical experience with wootz steel ingots? I have been reading the work of John Verhoeven and Alfred Pendray. Their work is intriguing. I'd love to work with some of this steel. For those who haven't read their work, they are able to recreate very similar metallurgy in the steel blades that Pendray forges to original museum Damascus blades. He prepares the wootz-like steel in crucibles then forges them into blades. It sounds like a complex task but the results are very pleasing. I also like the process of beginning with a very raw product and refining it - always pleasant in today's world where everything's made for us! You can read their work here: http://www-archive.mse.iastate.edu/who-we-are/people/emeritus-professors/john-verhoeven.html His damascus papers are at the bottom of the list. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 A melt using white cast iron and 5160 for the carbide formers will give you a start. watch the temps thats the key to the carbide banding we need for the pattern to show. Some success has been had with the use of an alloy of Vanadium rather than Chrome also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Send a message to Richard Furrer of Door County Forgeworks. He is a master swordsmith, and has offered wootz classes, as well as being featured in the PBS show "Secrets of The Viking Sword". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJ Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Thank you both for your replies. Maillemaker, thanks for the link to Richard Furrer. I doubt I'll make to one of his classes all the way from New Zealand but I'll send him a message and see if he can get me started. Steve, my reading suggests that you have to get the carbon accounting right before the melt. White cast iron would provide too much carbon without significant additions of mild steel. The old wootz swords that Verhoeven had access to had carbon contents between 1 and 1.5%. He certainly draws a strong link with vanadium and carbide segregagation forming the bands but only after some 50 heats during forging. Have you done any melts to date? How did they go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I shoot for getting a carbon content of 2%. the .60 of the 5160 with the roughly 4% for white iron you can get the ratio correctly, only did one with my old teacher, and it went well. Remember losses from forging it take a while to forge this stuff. reducing the carbon content to where we need it. about 1.5% or above, remember much of the carbon is bound up in carbides not in solution with the steel. I am NO expert in this stuff. Just sharing what little I have done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJ Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Hi Steve, I understand. I thought you were using mostly white cast iron. Apart from the long time at the forge this looks like a rewarding process. How did you find it? Did you get some nice patterns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 didnt work enough batches to learn how to manipulate the pattern so it was random carbide banding try and see. works red hard. I hope Richard jumps in here. From what I have seen, he knows much more about this than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJ Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Is Richard active on the site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm around yes. There is a steelmaker in Kiwiland by the name of Andrew MacKinnon near Taranaki. He has done more with local NZ ores than anyone I know and is a good man. His specialty is Japanese style work, but he is up to speed on other things. He is a bit of a recluse, but may speak to you about this. I think in the long run you would find it more satisfying to use local ore, smelt it to steel and then make crucible steel from that. A quick search of me on youtube will turn up some of my past classes on wootz. I think there is enough there to get you started. As to travel..I have a man coming in from Australia in a few months....so some folk do move a bit to get here. I would not mind doing a few classes in NZ if there was interest...you guys have some good smiths and knifemakers. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJ Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hi Ric,Thanks for the reply. I will look up Andrew. I will be down Taranaki for a family reunion so might be able to see him there.I think you are right about smelting from local ores. It would be very satisfying. I have had a look around your site and am part way through your video on smelting. Looks like fun. We have a lot of ironsand on our beaches.My early questions are around finding a crucible. Do you buy them or make them yourself? I have done pottery so know how to work with clay. Have you published your methods?With regard to classes here, I am not well connected with other smiths/ knifemakers but as I do and find interest I'll contact you.Thanks againRichardBy the way, Ric have you been in contact or worked with John Verhoeven and/or Alfred Pendray? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Dr Verhoeven and Al Pendray have their own research. I have met Pendray several times and I like him...he is a deep well. Crucibles: I suggest purchasing silicon carbide to start. You can make your own crucibles later, but it is best to have one variable at a time. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJ Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Thanks Ric, I appreciate your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I was Al's "helper" when he demonstrated at Quad-State. A deep well indeed! Evidently a *lot* of experimentation to work out things like thermal cycles and things like decarburizing the exterior of the "puck" to allow it to be worked even with the interior "crunchy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJ Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 Yes, I imagine he'd be good to watch and learn from. I was also impressed with their discovery of the suspected importance of Vanadium in aiding segregating the carbides outside the dendrites to form bands. Ric, I've been watching your videos and agree that there should be enough information to go on. Thank you for making the information available! Those ingots look like a lot of hard work to forge. Are you willing to pass on some hints about carbon content to aim for and suitable starting materials to try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert A Rasch Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I would not mind doing a few classes in NZ if there was interest...you guys have some good smiths and knifemakers. And soldiers too! Some of the best I've worked with! Best regards, Albert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichJ Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 Hi Albert, Yes, I've heard our SAS are well regarded. All the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrocracy Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Hi guys,I recently got Indian wootz, supposely old, from a serious antic collector... The guy has from 'cannon ball' size to 'ping pong ball' size pieces, I'm getting a dozen of small pieces. That's the first time I'm gonna forge any material of this kind so I'm fishing for tips.First of all, is there any way to confirm that it's actually 'old' wootz and not a modern crucible steel ?And how should I forge it to get the best chance of not wrecking everything ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Its almost certainly not wootz, and much more likely old ore crushing balls. There are a lot of these going around sold as antique wootz. Edited October 9, 2015 by basher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrocracy Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Thanks Basher, that's what I though too... U think it still would worth a try forging those ? Any tips how ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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